Air france pilots getting the blame

[densoo]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. Many airlines (including Delta) use 2 F/O's and 1 CA for a 3 man-crew. Flights over 12 hrs are double-crewed (2 CA's and 2 FO's.) Nothing inherently unsafe about 2 F/O's in the flight deck at cruise. We are fully qualified and typed and have gone through the same training as CA's. The only difference is seniority numbers and, of course, pay rates.

Not being sarcastic. At one airline they are NOT "fully qualified" in a captain upgrade course, nor are they subject to additional evals or any required line checks, as captains are. They are FOs who got a type-rated 15 years ago.

Here's the test. When the FO/IRO upgrades to the left seat do they have to go to a captain upgrade course? Yes? Why? If they're qualified to fly as a captain then when they're awarded captain then they should be able to simply put on 4 stripes and report to work the next day as a captain. No? Then the airline shouldn't pass them off as captains and the FAA shouldn't allow it.

 

[kwick]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. Many airlines (including Delta) use 2 F/O's and 1 CA for a 3 man-crew. Flights over 12 hrs are double-crewed (2 CA's and 2 FO's.) Nothing inherently unsafe about 2 F/O's in the flight deck at cruise. We are fully qualified and typed and have gone through the same training as CA's. The only difference is seniority numbers and, of course, pay rates.

And experience

 

[GogglesPisano]

Not being sarcastic. At one airline they are NOT "fully qualified" in a captain upgrade course, nor are they subject to additional evals or any required line checks, as captains are. They are FOs who got a type-rated 15 years ago.

Here's the test. When the FO/IRO upgrades to the left seat do they have to go to a captain upgrade course? Yes? Why? If they're qualified to fly as a captain then when they're awarded captain then they should be able to simply put on 4 stripes and report to work the next day as a captain. No? Then the airline shouldn't pass them off as captains and the FAA shouldn't allow it.

At Delta the training is the same. We don't have a designated IRO category. 9-month CQ training events with a CA paired with an F/O. Exact same standards, MV, LOE. I'm not sure what happens when someone upgrades in the same aircraft.

Are you suggesting we crew every 8hr+ international flight with 3 CA's and 0 F/O's?

 

[agrrlpilot]

I just love it when the media assume that as an F/O, we have "less experience" than a four striper. I've flown many times in which I've had more experience, more total time, and more time in equipment than my captain.

Unfortunately, he still got the "more money" part...

 

[densoo]

At Delta the training is the same. We don't have a designated IRO category. 9-month CQ training events with a CA paired with an F/O. Exact same standards, MV, LOE. I'm not sure what happens when someone upgrades in the same aircraft.

Are you suggesting we crew every 8hr+ international flight with 3 CA's and 0 F/O's?

Kudos to Delta. Really. That sounds better than another major which has different eval frequencies for CAs and FO/IROs.

I'm suggesting that one IRO trips require a CA IRO. Two IRO trips require one of them to be a CA. All IROs used to be CAs. One actual fully and qualified CA should be on the deck at all times. The flying public deserves it. Once the media finally figures out this collusive FAA-airline agreement it will change quickly, just like the one-guy-in-the-tower issue recently.

 

[densoo]

I just love it when the media assume that as an F/O, we have "less experience" than a four striper. I've flown many times in which I've had more experience, more total time, and more time in equipment than my captain. part...

It's not about experience. It is about perception as you say, but also about the degradation of the profession. All IROs being captain floats everyone's boat higher.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I'm sure it was a matter of the crew ordering Brie de Meaux and the F/As brought Brie de Melun. The captain had to go to the galley to sort it out while the ensuing 'heated discussion' between the two remaining crewmembers resulted in a complete loss of situational awareness.

 

[densoo]

Are you suggesting we crew every 8hr+ international flight with 3 CA's and 0 F/O's?

No. A CA has been an FO. Most FOs have not been CAs. A 3 person crew requires 2 CAs.

 

[msmb]

Really, most FOs have not been CAs??? What world do you live in?? Sorry back on topic...way to easy to blame dead pilots and not recognize a possible design flaw. RIP

 

[OrionFE]

No. A CA has been an FO. Most FOs have not been CAs. A 3 person crew requires 2 CAs.

I would have to disagree. You only need one Captain, the person that makes the final decisions regarding the flight. All three pilots are fully qualified to fly the airplane. At my airline all FO's are typed. Each leg the FO's swap from IRO to FO. If decisions besides basic flying, change altitude, etc. need to be made, you get the Captain to the flight deck so he can, well PIC! What happens when on a two-man aircraft the captain gets out to take a leak? here you have two fully qualified pilots on the flight deck and the captain seconds away if needed. In the case of the B747-400, he is in the bunk room on the flight deck!