Part 135 24 hour reserve?

[mdanno808]

Are 24 hour reserve periods legal under part 135?

 

[pilotyip]

Yes, see the thread on rewrite of 135.

 

[turboprophead]

i just met with our POI for our base inspection. he flat out told us that the faa does not care if pilots are on reserve 24 hours a day, that it does not count as duty. once they initiate a flight, like going to the airport, that is when duty starts. we dont do that at our company and that is what we told him is the difference between a place where you want to work and where you dont want to.

 

[pilotyip]

Work here?

That must be why my interview schedule is full, people want to work here and they don't they are not supposed to know they don't want to work here. Must be the money?

 

[flyboyike]

That must be why my interview schedule is full, people want to work here and they don't they are not supposed to know they don't want to work here. Must be the money?

English, please.

 

[pilotyip]

Why? anyways he is over on the other site.

 

[flyboyike]

Why? anyways he is over on the other site.

I don't know which it is with you, Gramps, late senility or early Alzheimer's, but you're not making one lick of sense

 

[pilotyip]

Flyboy you are a newbie to this site who is out of touch with the old days on FI. English was a screen name of a major contributor to this site. He has gone to another site. So when you posted English I refereed to the old time poster. Does that make sense? Plus everyone else on this board knows I almost flunked the 4th grade for spellling.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Yes, see the thread on rewrite of 135.

Actually, the answer to the origininal question is depends. Some POI's correctly consider home reserve as duty time. The way I look at it, if I can't be in Argentina when the company comes calling, then I'm on duty. Meaning, if I have to be available, I am on duty. If I'm "on call" from 6 am to 6 pm, between 6 pm and 6 am I can be in Argentina (or any where else for that matter) as long as I'm back by 6 am.

Pilot's can not go into suspended animation and just thaw out when the company needs them. I realise that it is nearly impossible to predict when an adhoc charter is going to pop up, but that does not negate that pilots do get tired.

In any case, if your POI doesn't have the balls, or the brains, to correctly enforce the rules, you (as a pilot) can always envoke 91.13 and tell your boss it isn't legal for you to fly because you are too tired. I've done it many times. If the company is too cheap to hire enough people to cover an aicraft 24/7 legally, then they are too cheap to train a pilot to replace you.

 

[pilotyip]

Fatigue is the key, because when a crew is fatigued, they call fatigue and go to the hotel. In fact to fly fatigued, would be a violation of 91.13, careless and reckless. To start a trip at 0600 after a good night's sleep it is almost a no brainer to fly until 2200 or 2300 and still feel fresh. I would rather tail end 91 ferry back to LRD than go through the hassle of staying at MMTO, I will most likely get to bed quicker in LRD. However after no sleep from being up all day and getting called out at 2300, you may find at 0600 the next day after 7 hours you are fatigued, so you call fatigue even though you are still legal for another 7 hours. There is no rest policy that will keep a crew fresh for all flights. How about I call you at 0900, and get you out of bed after 10 hrs of sleep, I tell you to go into rest at 1000 for a 2000 trip. Are you going to get any more rest in the next 9 hours? You will most likely not unless you take sleeping pills. The trip is scheduled for 13 hrs, you are 100% legal by the regs, are you still alert at 0900? you would be legal until 1200 the next morning? As someone else posted here it is the PIC's duty to determine if he can safely make the trip. You cannot regulate that beyond common sense. My experience with this rule comes from inspections with the FAA while reviewing our flight and duty time records.

 

[A Squared]

Are 24 hour reserve periods legal under part 135?

Well, the devil is in the details: If the company expects you to arrive at the airport at any time, within say an hour of getting a call, absolutely not.

On the other hand, if you are "on call" but the company calls you and says, hyy, you will have a flight in XX hours, your rest starts now, and that gives you ehough uninterrupted time to meet the rest requirements, starting at the time of the call, that is legal.

WHy it it illegal in hte first case? Well, because there are requriements for rest. And being subject to reporting for work after a phone call has clearly and unambiguously been specifically ruled by the FAAs' chief counsel to *not* be rest. Now, whether the is duty is a little greyer, but for an absolute fact, it is not rest if you are obligated to answer the phone, and grab your flight bag and head for hte airport. And the regulations specify a requirement for rest which cannot be met if you are on call.

i just met with our POI for our base inspection. he flat out told us that the faa does not care if pilots are on reserve 24 hours a day, that it does not count as duty. once they initiate a flight, like going to the airport, that is when duty starts.

Doesn't matter if it's duty or not. You have a required period of rest. Show your POI 135.267 (e) (I'm assuming you're unscheduled), then show him the Chief Counsel letter of interpretation that says it's not rest if you have to answer the phone and report to the airport if called, then ask him how you meet the rest requrements if it is not rest?

My experience with this rule comes from inspections with the FAA while reviewing our flight and duty time records.

The fact that an individual Inspector may go along with something doesn't make it legal.

As an example. We used to have a flight which generally could not be completed within the flight time limits It was flown by a 2 pilot crew airplane so the Domestic supplemental rules for 2 pilots applied. I don't recall the specific scenario, as I don't fly that airplane or under those regs, but the upshot was that the company wanted a scheduling arrangement that couldn't be done legally. However, the company got the POI to agree that preflight and post flight duties were not "duty"; that "duty" began at brake release and ended when back in the blocks. Pure Horse$hit!!!. The F/O is requried to report 1.5 hours before departure to preflight the plane and fuel, the captain is requried to report an hour prior to departure, and according to our manual, we are on duty until 30 minuts after we block in. The idea that none of this is "duty", only the flight time is just completely absurd yet our POI agreed that this was OK. I don't know whether this guy was stupid, or perhaps paid off, or perhaps both, but the point is, having a POI agree to something is pretty meaningless.

The fact that PilotYip's scheduling has passed inspection may mean they have a method of complying with the rest requirements, say with 10 hour advance notice of any flight or it may only mean that he has an incompetent and/or corrupt POI, Without more details, it's hadr to say

 

[pilotyip]

Again a squared, the proof is in the PIC's determination if he is fatigued. You cannot force rest; you can assign rest and be legal but that person may be no more rested than someone who is on-call is that twilight zone that exists upon completion of a required rest period. We fly legal and have a safety record unsurpassed in our sector of the industry.

 

[A Squared]

Again a squared, the proof is in the PIC's determination if he is fatigued. You cannot force rest; you can assign rest and be legal but that person may be no more rested than someone who is on-call is that twilight zone that exists upon completion of a required rest period.

Uhhh, yes, I think that we all understand that there is a difference between meeting the regulatory requirements for rest and being rested.

That wasn't the question, nor is it the issue being discussed.

 

[jman90]

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
Federal Aviation Administration
Flight Crewmember Flight Time Limitations and Rest
Requirements​

AGENCY:

Federal Aviation Administration, DOT.​

ACTION:
Notice.​

Administrator finds necessary for safety in air commerce and​

national security." 49 U.S.C. § 44701(a)(5).​

The current rules specify flight time limitations and

rest requirements for air carriers certificated to operate

under part 121 (domestic: subpart Q; flag: subpart R; and
supplemental: subpart S) and part 135 (subpart F). The FAA
has consistently interpreted the term rest to mean that a
flight crewmember is free from actual work for the air
carrier or from the present responsibility for work should
the occasion arise. Thus, the FAA previously has determined
that a flight crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the
flight crewmember had a present responsibility for work in
that the flight crewmember had to be available for the
carrier to notify of a flight assignment.
The FAA’s current rules at 14 CFR § 121.471 set forth
flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic
operations. Subsections (b) and (c) of this section have
generated numerous interpretation requests from industry.​

Section 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements:
All flight crewmembers.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no
certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a
flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an
assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours
4
preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a
scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the
following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of
scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9
hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of
scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for
less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or
may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be
scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight
crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that
must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of
the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be
scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight
crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that
must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of
the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be
scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight
crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that
must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of
the reduced rest period.
5
Similar language is contained in Sections 135.265(b) and
(c). Also note the "look back" requirement in Section
135.267(d).
The FAA has consistently interpreted Section 121.471(b)
and the corresponding Section 135.265(b) to mean that the
certificate holder and the flight crewmember must be able to
look back over the 24 consecutive hours preceding the
scheduled completion of the flight segment and find the
required scheduled rest period. This interpretation of rest
also has been applied to pilots on "reserve time." Reserve
time while not defined in 14 CFR is generally understood to
be a period of time when a flight crewmember is not on duty
but must be available to report upon notice for a duty
period. Thus, a flight crewmember on reserve could not take
a flight assignment, and the certificate holder could not
schedule that crewmember for a flight assignment, unless the
flight crewmember had a scheduled rest period such that at
the end of the flight segment one could look back 24 hours
and find the required amount of rest.
Compliance and Enforcement Plan
Flight crewmembers and their unions have raised
concerns that scheduling processes used by some certificate
holders may not ensure compliance with flight time
restrictions and rest requirements when a flight crewmember
6
is on reserve duty. Any noncompliance should be corrected
without delay.
With regard to violations by
individual flight crewmembers, the FAA will consider the
circumstances of each case, including such factors as the
employing certificate holder’s efforts to come into
compliance and the culpability of the individual.
If any certificate holder needs to make changes to its
scheduling system, the FAA believes that full compliance can
be achieved by all certificate holders within 180 calendar
days. Until that time the FAA does not intend to target its
inspection resources on this compliance issue. However, on
December 12, 1999, the FAA intends to begin a comprehensive
review of certificate holders’ flight scheduling practices
7
and expects to deal stringently with any violations
discovered.
Issued in Washington, DC on June 10, 1999
/s/
L. Nicholas Lacey
Director, Flight Standards Service​

​

 

[414Flyer]

Flyboy you are a newbie to this site who is out of touch with the old days on FI. English was a screen name of a major contributor to this site. He has gone to another site. So when you posted English I refereed to the old time poster. Does that make sense? Plus everyone else on this board knows I almost flunked the 4th grade for spellling.

That will be news to her!

 

[pilotyip]

you didn't hear about the sex change required on the other site?

 

[Way2Broke]

you didn't hear about the sex change required on the other site?

Now thats funny!!! Thanks for the laugh YIP. Thats one of the many reasons I stay right here.

 

[districtpilot]

and....... can anyone offer an opinion on the 24 hour rule as it relates to recurrent training. Is flying the sims engaging in scheduled air transportation?

 

[districtpilot]

and....... can anyone offer an opinion on the 24 hour rule as it relates to recurrent training. Is flying the sims engaging in scheduled air transportation?

Disregard, I figured out I believe that at the point you report for flight duty or standby duty for that matter, you must have the 24 hours of rest within the past 7 days.

 

[pilotyip]

and....... can anyone offer an opinion on the 24 hour rule as it relates to recurrent training. Is flying the sims engaging in scheduled air transportation?

sim training is not involved in air commerce, no 24 hrs off in seven days, no rest requirements, but once you go back to line flying you must do a look back and ensure all items are covered.