24 more pilots for ASa

[crj567]

Bottom line is, the Association must agree with the bid run solution.[/B

Ignore the facts if you like.

I noticed this garbage, and just can't let it go. This is a great example of the kind of misleading way in which PBS was marketed to us.

Notice, I was griping about PAIRING construction-which is the BIG problem with our agreement. Medeco's answer concerns BID RUN SOLUTIONS. These are two totally different things. Don't get the two confused. Once the pairings are made, there is no fixing them, at least not by and binding contractual language. A bid run solution only concerns what happens after everyone bids, and this is largely a non-factor. If you plug in 14 hour credit 4 days, you can't get a good bid run solution no matter what.

-Don't approve any version of PBS in which there is not some sort of enforceable agreement between the company and the union on PAIRING CONSTRUCTION.

-Read what the contract actually says-never rely on this scammy mixing of terms. It still amazes me that out people are willing to try and fake everyone out. The truth is there in black ad white.

-P.S.- Medeco never explained the whole coin-toss thing, for good reason-it is embarassing. Pick up the agreement and read that part. Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the whole coin-flipping mess will actually work? (Hint: there is a good reason lawyers and judges don't do stuff like that in court.)

 

[the palm]

I noticed this garbage, and just can't let it go. This is a great example of the kind of misleading way in which PBS was marketed to us.

Notice, I was griping about PAIRING construction-which is the BIG problem with our agreement. Medeco's answer concerns BID RUN SOLUTIONS. These are two totally different things. Don't get the two confused. Once the pairings are made, there is no fixing them, at least not by and binding contractual language. A bid run solution only concerns what happens after everyone bids, and this is largely a non-factor. If you plug in 14 hour credit 4 days, you can't get a good bid run solution no matter what.

-Don't approve any version of PBS in which there is not some sort of enforceable agreement between the company and the union on PAIRING CONSTRUCTION.

-Read what the contract actually says-never rely on this scammy mixing of terms. It still amazes me that out people are willing to try and fake everyone out. The truth is there in black ad white.

-P.S.- Medeco never explained the whole coin-toss thing, for good reason-it is embarassing. Pick up the agreement and read that part. Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the whole coin-flipping mess will actually work? (Hint: there is a good reason lawyers and judges don't do stuff like that in court.)

I'm sorry, crj567, but I gotta call a spade a spade and you are a tool.

The first month of PBS at ASA has been an overwhelming success. Sure there were some hiccups throughout the launch, but our ALPA guys worked tirelessly to fix the issues. Even the most hardcore naysayers, except you, have come around to see our PBS system for what it really is...an improvement to line bidding! <gasp> It just takes time and energy to learn the system to get the most out of it. If you are not willing to do that I'm sure everyone junior to you will appreciate it.

You are right about one thing. Pairing construction is the key to a good schedule. But that has always been the case....even with line bidding. Now you just get to pick the trips you want instead of having someone else do it for you. Who would you rather have build your schedule, YOU or Pappageorgio? Now hopefully we get some language in the next contract that allows us to have more control over the pairing construction process. But we will just have to wait and see.

Oh, and how is the coin toss thing embarrassing? This just shows me you have no idea how this process works or what it is used for. It's only used to resolve a dispute if there is one. I heard the company was happy to use ALPA's bid runs and had no issues. Of course they don't use it in court because there is a judge to rule on disputes. There is no judge or arbitrator sitting in the A-Tech waiting to rule on our bid runs. Just the company and ALPA. Would you prefer they play rock, paper, scissors? Arm wrestle?

Look, everyone who reads this board knows you hate ALPA. We get it. I have been hard on them too in the past and we need to hold their feet to the fire. But you are way off base on your anti-PBS platform. Just sit down with a trainer for a few hours and learn how to bid. Or you can continue to be miserable for the rest of your career at ASA.

 

[asayankee]

Ask some of the reserve guys how PBS has been for them. For most of us it has been a step backwards.

 

[777forever]

I'm sorry, crj567, but I gotta call a spade a spade and you are a tool.

The first month of PBS at ASA has been an overwhelming success. Sure there were some hiccups throughout the launch, but our ALPA guys worked tirelessly to fix the issues. Even the most hardcore naysayers, except you, have come around to see our PBS system for what it really is...an improvement to line bidding! <gasp> It just takes time and energy to learn the system to get the most out of it. If you are not willing to do that I'm sure everyone junior to you will appreciate it.

You are right about one thing. Pairing construction is the key to a good schedule. But that has always been the case....even with line bidding. Now you just get to pick the trips you want instead of having someone else do it for you. Who would you rather have build your schedule, YOU or Pappageorgio? Now hopefully we get some language in the next contract that allows us to have more control over the pairing construction process. But we will just have to wait and see.

Oh, and how is the coin toss thing embarrassing? This just shows me you have no idea how this process works or what it is used for. It's only used to resolve a dispute if there is one. I heard the company was happy to use ALPA's bid runs and had no issues. Of course they don't use it in court because there is a judge to rule on disputes. There is no judge or arbitrator sitting in the A-Tech waiting to rule on our bid runs. Just the company and ALPA. Would you prefer they play rock, paper, scissors? Arm wrestle?

Look, everyone who reads this board knows you hate ALPA. We get it. I have been hard on them too in the past and we need to hold their feet to the fire. But you are way off base on your anti-PBS platform. Just sit down with a trainer for a few hours and learn how to bid. Or you can continue to be miserable for the rest of your career at ASA.

Epic win for da Palm!

 

[777forever]

Ask some of the reserve guys how PBS has been for them. For most of us it has been a step backwards.

Ask most of the guys who WERE on reserve how PBS has been for them. Most of us will say its a MASSIVE step forward. QOL and Pay wise

 

[Data]

Ask some of the reserve guys how PBS has been for them. For most of us it has been a step backwards.

For some it has been an improvement. I can hold nap reserve and long call if I want, before it was 9am or noon. If you're at the bottom, you're at the bottom and PBS won't change that. Talk to the 10 year guys that were on reserve last month and are now holding a line, they're pretty happy with it.

 

[the palm]

Ask some of the reserve guys how PBS has been for them. For most of us it has been a step backwards.

Yeah. Went from 35% reserves in January (line bidding) to less than 15% in February (PBS). Sounds horrible.

 

[Medeco]

I noticed this garbage, and just can't let it go. This is a great example of the kind of misleading way in which PBS was marketed to us.

Notice, I was griping about PAIRING construction-which is the BIG problem with our agreement. Medeco's answer concerns BID RUN SOLUTIONS. These are two totally different things. Don't get the two confused. Once the pairings are made, there is no fixing them, at least not by and binding contractual language. A bid run solution only concerns what happens after everyone bids, and this is largely a non-factor. If you plug in 14 hour credit 4 days, you can't get a good bid run solution no matter what.

-Don't approve any version of PBS in which there is not some sort of enforceable agreement between the company and the union on PAIRING CONSTRUCTION.

-Read what the contract actually says-never rely on this scammy mixing of terms. It still amazes me that out people are willing to try and fake everyone out. The truth is there in black ad white.

-P.S.- Medeco never explained the whole coin-toss thing, for good reason-it is embarassing. Pick up the agreement and read that part. Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the whole coin-flipping mess will actually work? (Hint: there is a good reason lawyers and judges don't do stuff like that in court.)

You, are such an embarrasment to the ASA pilot group, I'm glad I dont know who you actually are, I dont want to.

I love how you come on here speaking as the all mighty king of I know everything. You make for the perfect stereotype of a pilot.

Clue #1, scroll back to post #47 on this thread, and then come back and tell us all again that I didnt spell it out.

Regarding the pairings, yes I agree the pairings blow.

Tell me this, how does the Union and ASA force Delta/United to change the times and frequency that the flights go?

Now, Maybe they could do a little bit better, but I highly doubt that it would be enough to shut you up. In fact I am sure of that.

Look around, you will find that most airlines have the same BS type pairings where you have to sit for a few hours between flights, or a long overnight at a destination they would agree is not rock star quality.

Does this mean I am complacent in allowing the company to do whatever it wants? NO, it means I see reality, the reality is we have very little recourse to fix this to 100% likable.

Carry on, Mr. I KNOW EVERYTHING because I AM A PILOT!

 

[asayankee]

Yeah. Went from 35% reserves in January (line bidding) to less than 15% in February (PBS). Sounds horrible.

Yes...it got many people off reserve, but for those who are still on it life has gotten somewhat worse. It's still early though, lets see how this plays out.

With the shortage of reserves over the first part of the month don't be surprised if we start to see the percentages creep back up again.

 

[Abernathy]

My guess is this summer will see a huge slowdown effort that may last a couple weeks until the company finally cuts the crap. It won't be any thanks to our MEC kool aid drinkers, though, who are more concerned about helping the company run efficiently (efficiently based on the company's definition: squeezing the crap out of the pilots) than it is concerned with pilots QOL.

We need a group that represents the pilots not the company. The company has enough representation.

 

[IHateDaley]

You, are such an embarrasment to the ASA pilot group, I'm glad I dont know who you actually are, I dont want to.

Not hard to figure out. Same writing style as on the ALPA board.

 

[crj567]

You are right about one thing. Pairing construction is the key to a good schedule. But that has always been the case....even with line bidding. Now you just get to pick the trips you want instead of having someone else do it for you. Who would you rather have build your schedule, YOU or Pappageorgio? Now hopefully we get some language in the next contract that allows us to have more control over the pairing construction process. But we will just have to wait and see.

My point is very simple... We should fix this problem, or we should not TA any JCBA. We should admit to ourselves that this is a problem, we should man-up and fix it while we can.

There isn't, nor was there ever, any reason to represent this as a non-problem. This system can be a good thing, but we cannot allow ourselves to get screwed. It is not right to ignore such a big issue, or to hope that it will go away.

-Medeco. The company doesn't have a choice as far as the flights they get from Delta, but they do have a choice over how many naps and day lines they choose to build. Sure, it may be a little more expensive to design more naps and day lines into this mess, but so be it. We deserve decent pairings, and the company could well use some of the savings they gained through this system to provide them.

This problem is only intractable if we don't force the company to tow the line. This should be a two-way street. The brasilia and ATR had great trips (comparatively.) We could balance things out with enough naps and day lines to create great schedules.

-It sure is strange how sweet the schedules were back when we were voting on this TA. Same block hours, same stage length, as before and after that period.... A vote comes up, and WOW-best schedules we saw in years-for about 3 months straight... Funny-ain't it? -Anyone else wonder how that happened?

 

[crj567]

My guess is this summer will see a huge slowdown effort that may last a couple weeks until the company finally cuts the crap. It won't be any thanks to our MEC kool aid drinkers, though, who are more concerned about helping the company run efficiently (efficiently based on the company's definition: squeezing the crap out of the pilots) than it is concerned with pilots QOL.

We need a group that represents the pilots not the company. The company has enough representation.

I, too, have heard enough excuses. I am ready for a change. Nowhere to go but up.

 

[the palm]

I, too, have heard enough excuses. I am ready for a change. Nowhere to go but up.

But will YOU be the one to step up? I doubt it.

 

[ASApuppy]

I've done a lot of thinking about this and I feel we should give up Duty rig to CDO's. I am not a napper. So, I feel the pain from those that do, but we need to look out for the overall pilot group. Fact is, most nap lines pay almost triple time for the work. It is no wonder they went from junior lineholders to senior lineholders after the last contract. What also happened since the last contract has been the proliferation of the 4 day trips. And with the 4 day trips came all the 4am wake up calls. Seriously, should 60% of the pilots suffer to financially award 10% with a sweetheart deal. I honestly see them as being interconnected. I feel guarantee pay for flying 30-35 hrs is fair.

And yes, we could do much better at pairing construction. Just look at the flows of the aircraft. They are effecient. I feel the company is in a mode were they believe their best tool to recover from an IROP is to have 70% of their crews on a trip. We need to figure out a way to end the adversareal relationship that exists with scheduling and the crews.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I feel we should give up Duty rig to CDO's. I am not a napper. So, I feel the pain from those that do, but we need to look out for the overall pilot group. Fact is, most nap lines pay almost triple time for the work. It is no wonder they went from junior lineholders to senior lineholders after the last contract. What also happened since the last contract has been the proliferation of the 4 day trips. And with the 4 day trips came all the 4am wake up calls. Seriously, should 60% of the pilots suffer to financially award 10% with a sweetheart deal. I honestly see them as being interconnected. I feel guarantee pay for flying 30-35 hrs is fair.

And yes, we could do much better at pairing construction. Just look at the flows of the aircraft. They are effecient. I feel the company is in a mode were they believe their best tool to recover from an IROP is to have 70% of their crews on a trip. We need to figure out a way to end the adversareal relationship that exists with scheduling and the crews.

This to me is the whole goal of Pappagiorgio. 85% is even better.

We need to end rigs on naps

 

[Nevets]

Ask most of the guys who WERE on reserve how PBS has been for them. Most of us will say its a MASSIVE step forward. QOL and Pay wise

What about the senior FOs who were looking forward to upgrading sooner rather than later? How much longer will it take for that new FO lineholder now to become captain because of the efficiency PBS has created in the left seat?

Everyone seems to talk about how many more people are now lineholders but no one ever talks about the other side of that equation.

 

[79%N1]

I hate naps and won't bid them, but how would you pay them then? 75 hrs? How did we used to do it?

 

[bigshooter107]

I hate naps and won't bid them, but how would you pay them then? 75 hrs? How did we used to do it?

Premium pay

 

[Noise]

What about the senior FOs who were looking forward to upgrading sooner rather than later? How much longer will it take for that new FO lineholder now to become captain because of the efficiency PBS has created in the left seat?

Everyone seems to talk about how many more people are now lineholders but no one ever talks about the other side of that equation.

Yes, 777Forever is too drunk on the company koolaid to understand this fact. He will be sitting on his leather bum for at least 6-7 years throwing gear before he can hold captain. It's ok though, PBS is AWESOME and he is off reserve!!! It will be really funny to see his reaction when there is a mass exodus from the 700 to the 200 in ATL due to a reduction in lines with a DTW 700 base opening.

I would say that on average PBS will delay upgrades by 12-18 months. Obviously this is just an educated guess and there are many factors besides PBS that come into play with upgrades.

The company will offer 12 new captain vacancies for 4 new airplanes coming. We are hiring 24 people to cover for the new airplanes and attrition.

As far as I am concerned a joint contract with the XJT and an opt out of PBS can't come soon enough.