Virgin America - do pilots have to sign any work agreement/ contract

[shon7]

Does VX makes pilots sign an individual work agreement like JBLU and do these automatically renew after 5 years ?

 

[tzskipper]

Does VX makes pilots sign an individual work agreement like JBLU and do these automatically renew after 5 years ?

No....

 

[FlyAuburn]

What is the VA pilot group doing about your payrates? Unfortunately, JB's management has decided that VA will be included in our peer set next year, even though VA is not considered a major airline yet. Thus, your rates will bring our average down.

 

[Blue Dude]

It doesn't matter. We'll vote in ALPA long before they get around to our second (skipped) pay adjustment, and then we'll be frozen with current rates for probably 3-4 years before our first contract is signed. By then, either VA will be gone, up to par, or ignored. No way they're going to "bring down" our rates in any way.

 

[Busdriver320]

What is the VA pilot group doing about your payrates? Unfortunately, JB's management has decided that VA will be included in our peer set next year, even though VA is not considered a major airline yet. Thus, your rates will bring our average down.

Not being flippant here, but what were JB's rates in their 3rd year of Ops (VA started the 3rd year in August '10)? Not today's 3rd year, but back in what, 2002-3?
I would love to do something about our rates (VA), but we don't have an argument. Look at Spirit's new rates for anything less than 6th year capts, they're lower than VA's. Ditto for everyone else (just about). I understand the deal, Spirit doesn't HAVE less than a 9 year capt, so they didn't bother negotiating decent rates below 6th year, which is probably what they figure the most junior capts will be at some point (with their projected growth). Same for everyone else, no pilots in that range so why bother negotiating a rate, right?

So what happens when us VA guys go to mgmt and say we want more? We get told we're making the same or more than other A320 operators, for our same longevity. How do we argue with that? The tipping point will be when we have people reaching 6th year pay and its $15 less than NK, 7th year $20 less, and so on. THAT will be the time we can make a valid argument.

 

[Sailpilot]

Isn't 10 year VA 320 CA rates Higher then USair's?

Oh well, I guess USair (America West rebranded) is busy fighting with each other instead of moving forward...

3...2...1! Here it comes!:bomb:

 

[FlyAuburn]

Not being flippant here, but what were JB's rates in their 3rd year of Ops (VA started the 3rd year in August '10)? Not today's 3rd year, but back in what, 2002-3?
I would love to do something about our rates (VA), but we don't have an argument. Look at Spirit's new rates for anything less than 6th year capts, they're lower than VA's. Ditto for everyone else (just about). I understand the deal, Spirit doesn't HAVE less than a 9 year capt, so they didn't bother negotiating decent rates below 6th year, which is probably what they figure the most junior capts will be at some point (with their projected growth). Same for everyone else, no pilots in that range so why bother negotiating a rate, right?

So what happens when us VA guys go to mgmt and say we want more? We get told we're making the same or more than other A320 operators, for our same longevity. How do we argue with that? The tipping point will be when we have people reaching 6th year pay and its $15 less than NK, 7th year $20 less, and so on. THAT will be the time we can make a valid argument.

I was hired in 2005, so I don't know what kind of resistance the pilots were giving management back then. I can tell you that from the moment I arrived, this group has been trying to improve our rates and work rules in one way or another (committees, union drives, etc). I see your logic and I appreciate your honesty. I conclude that your rates will not change for another 2-3 years. Or at least that you will not start trying until that time. And then, only God knows how long it will take to get at least industry average pay rates.

 

[BeachBummer]

Isn't 10 year VA 320 CA rates Higher then USair's?

Oh well, I guess USair (America West rebranded) is busy fighting with each other instead of moving forward...

3...2...1! Here it comes!:bomb:

:uzi:Come on sail. You could have checked that.

USA 10yr 320 CA= $122
VA 10yr Bus CA = $133

Not to mention they are fairly close to what JB was before the last bump.

Dont turn this VA bashing into a E v W throw down.

 

[NEDude]

Ten year UAL A320 captain is $134.
Ten year Spirit A320 captain is $138.

Spirit had to strike to get $5/hr more than VA rates. VA has not been a round nearly long enough, nor is big enough, to have a negative effect on other airline pay rates. And we are in the ballpark with two legacies, and an LCC that just had to strike to get into that ballpark.

VA rates are not great, we all recognize that. But they are not out of line with the industry and are quite reasonable for an airline just just started year three of operations. The pay rates will come up in time, just like they did for JetBlue.

 

[Caveman]

What is the VA pilot group doing about your payrates? Unfortunately, JB's management has decided that VA will be included in our peer set next year, even though VA is not considered a major airline yet. Thus, your rates will bring our average down.

I don't know where you stand on our ALPA drive so take this with a grain of salt, but JetBlue pilots need to get in the game and help negotiate higher rates instead of letting other groups do the heavy lifting. We need to negotiate our own contract using other contracts as benchmarks. It's called pattern bargaining and it only works if everyone participates. So far we've been content to let others do the work. In effect we (JetBlue) are still part of the problem. We are hindering the progress of other groups negotiations because of the gaping holes we have in our work rules and benefits. Instead of accepting PSIA we should be trying to create a new benchmark. YMMV.

 

[vtwo]

Ten year UAL A320 captain is $134.
Ten year Spirit A320 captain is $138.

Spirit had to strike to get $5/hr more than VA rates. VA has not been a round nearly long enough, nor is big enough, to have a negative effect on other airline pay rates. And we are in the ballpark with two legacies, and an LCC that just had to strike to get into that ballpark.

VA rates are not great, we all recognize that. But they are not out of line with the industry and are quite reasonable for an airline just just started year three of operations. The pay rates will come up in time, just like they did for JetBlue.

Come on NOW!!!! it does Not matter what the HOURLY IS!!
What counts it the take home. Benefits, insurance, retirement, sick time, vacation, scheduling. all those add up.
how much cash for how much time from home. Compare apples to apples.

 

[john cocktosen]

Anyone got the scoop on hiring at virgin?? Any more classes this year?

 

[Chairman]

Classes continue to run. The folks interviewing now are for Jan and Feb classes!

 

[LoveGun]

Anyone got the scoop on hiring at virgin?? Any more classes this year?

I think we are hiring 18 a month for at least two more years. VA is adding 6 planes between october and december 2010 (2 or 3 are already online). After that, VA has financed and secured 22 additional airbus deliveries at a rate of about one per month through 2012. After those 22 aircraft VA has an MOU for forty additional airbus's and options for 20 more on top of that. The MOU aircraft are not a done deal yet. They aren't financed -- they aren't a firm order. My uneducated guess is the MOU airplanes will get funding via a VA IPO in late 2012 or early 2013. That is just a guess on the part of a line pilot so take it for what it's worth.

Right now, VA has 31 planes flying. We have firm orders and deliveries planned to bring the fleet size to 55 aircraft. Then we have that MOU (pie in the sky plan) set up with airbus to bring our fleet up to 95 to 115 airplanes. With our current delivery schedule anyone hired before we reached 28 planes will upgrade by the end of 2012. Anyone hired after the 28 plane mark better hope VA turns the MOU with airbus into firm orders.

VA is supposed to turn an operating profit for 2010 and a real life profit in 2011. Management says we are track and ahead of most financial goals set before launch (why would they say anything else?). When I first got hired it was common knowledge that we wouldn't have the economy of scale to go profitable until somewhere between 30 and 40 airplanes. High oil prices in 2008 and then the ownership red herring in 2009 slowed us down a bit, but it looks like things are on track now. We'll see. Our financial data is held really close so no one really knows how good we are doing except the board of directors.

 

[BRA]

Ten year UAL A320 captain is $134.
Ten year Spirit A320 captain is $138.

Spirit had to strike to get $5/hr more than VA rates. VA has not been a round nearly long enough, nor is big enough, to have a negative effect on other airline pay rates. And we are in the ballpark with two legacies, and an LCC that just had to strike to get into that ballpark.

VA rates are not great, we all recognize that. But they are not out of line with the industry and are quite reasonable for an airline just just started year three of operations. The pay rates will come up in time, just like they did for JetBlue.

I got to go inside one of the planes a while back. I didn't actually ride but I thought it looked really nice inside. Airbus is pretty nice to begin with, but the interior on that thing was really nice.

 

[Sailpilot]

I got to go inside one of the planes a while back. I didn't actually ride but I thought it looked really nice inside. Airbus is pretty nice to begin with, but the interior on that thing was really nice.

I thought it looked like a sleazy strip club when I got in the plane.

Yes, I like that...

 

[Ralph Cramden]

I thought it looked like a sleazy strip club when I got in the plane.

Yes, I like that...

That was my initial impression as well. Since then I have had the unfortunate opportunity to ride home on many of our red eye flights. The blue to deep purple to pink transition during the red eye really helps prevent that morning groggy feeling.

I really hate it on other airline red eyes when the bright white cabin lighting is suddenly turned on. There ain't enough coffee in the world to overcome that insult!

 

[Busdriver320]

That was my initial impression as well. Since then I have had the unfortunate opportunity to ride home on many of our red eye flights. The blue to deep purple to pink transition during the red eye really helps prevent that morning groggy feeling.

I really hate it on other airline red eyes when the bright white cabin lighting is suddenly turned on. There ain't enough coffee in the world to overcome that insult!

Now if we, and every other airline, could disable the BRIGHT individual lights on all redeyes! I can't stand these self-centered idiots who insist on turning on their overhead reading lights when just about EVERYONE ELSE on the plane is trying to sleep! Get a battery-powered clamp-on book light for crisakes!

 

[kwick]

Ten year UAL A320 captain is $134.
Ten year Spirit A320 captain is $138.

Spirit had to strike to get $5/hr more than VA rates. VA has not been a round nearly long enough, nor is big enough, to have a negative effect on other airline pay rates. And we are in the ballpark with two legacies, and an LCC that just had to strike to get into that ballpark.

VA rates are not great, we all recognize that. But they are not out of line with the industry and are quite reasonable for an airline just just started year three of operations. The pay rates will come up in time, just like they did for JetBlue.

Top Spirit pay tops out at $185/hr.

That's about 50k per year more.

 

[StarChecker]

VA has not been a round nearly long enough, nor is big enough, to have a negative effect on other airline pay rates.

I'm not going to argue JetBlue vs Virgin rates since JB paid $85/hr when everyone else was paying $200+/hr.



BUT....


our COO in his last conference call mentioned how your payrates were going to be included in our peer set since soon you'll be a "major" airline. So your payrates absolutely and directly affect ours.