P-56 Busted Airspace

[zawillif]

I'm not one to Monday morning quarterback--at least I really try not to--but twice!?? How the F--does anyone know the what exactly happened?

 

[Brasilia Pup]

Makes you wonder why there is not a SID out of DCA. Following the river (which is hidden under a canopy of trees for about a mile) is not exactly good technique when you are trying to avoid a no-fly zone.

 

[Data]

Great, now that we got the runway heading and stall thing down they're going to add a new event for PCs, something along the line of "Prohibited space, crosschecked."

 

[blesko]

Same way we had RNAV OTG issues and same way we had screwed up the OHare 5 with the 250kt airspeed limitation and missing the 5 and 8 DME altitude crossing restrictions. Complacency. The lowest common denominator wins again.

 

[Abernathy]

Captain was busy affixing his "Don't Tread on Me" sticker to his flight bag. Was an ASA flight, right?

 

[JettBoii]

That's why we use the fix page...to draw the radial....so you can follow it....etc etc

 

[zawillif]

Makes you wonder why there is not a SID out of DCA. Following the river (which is hidden under a canopy of trees for about a mile) is not exactly good technique when you are trying to avoid a no-fly zone.

Yeah but it's not that difficult. You can see the Capitol right in front of your face, plus the Jepps, plus the permanent yellow sign by the runway that says "AVOID P-56". And you can see the river too. I can't believe that both pilots missed this both times. This is one instance where I'd actually grab the controls and turn the plane if I had to.

 

[JumpersAway]

How many of the 4 pilots were senior to me??????

 

[Oakum_Boy]

FOUR??? Probably the guys you always thought wer gonna screw something up but didn't say anything to keep the peace. Probably had the darn Jepp book closed on top of the O2 mask as per usual. Ah, heck, this thing practically flies itself! They should just shoot down the next one, that way we can see who the morons are.

 

[LearLove]

Makes you wonder why there is not a SID out of DCA. Following the river (which is hidden under a canopy of trees for about a mile) is not exactly good technique when you are trying to avoid a no-fly zone.

What? - among other landmarks you can clearly see the river both taking off Rwy01 and landing 19. Intercept the 328 DCA radial works just fine also.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Makes you wonder why there is not a SID out of DCA. Following the river (which is hidden under a canopy of trees for about a mile) is not exactly good technique when you are trying to avoid a no-fly zone.

It's easy. Take off. Turn left. Follow the river. By the time you are ready to turn, you are above the trees...

OR you can even (gasp) plug in the radial, and fly that, just like you were IMC.

The bottom line is that people aren't reading the 10-4 or 10-10 pages, or if they do, they don't take the time to fully comprehend them.

For a rwy 1 departure...turn LEFT immediately. Someone is going to get shot down eventually if they don't.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Spoke with a friend at Potomac Tracon, this happens a lot more often than we may think.

If anyone wants to take a stab at who started service at DCA, you may be interested in knowing that said carrier busted P-56 this week too...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

That's why we use the fix page...to draw the radial....so you can follow it....etc etc

I'd draw it into the Nav setup and white needle it from the get-go.

Gear Up, Speed Mode, Nav Mode, Auto Pilot On... and live to fly another day.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle mandates a green needle takeoff with the DCA VOR Radial preset.

 

[sinkrate]

From the 'digital terminal procedures' the only FAA published departure procedure for rwy 1 is​

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 1, left turn as soon as
practicable, intercept DCA R-328. Climb to 5000 or as assigned.​

You follow the river on the approach to 19, not the departure. If you are filed IFR the only FAA accepted departure procedure is to tune the DCA VOR and track the 328 radial out. Then stay on that radial until ATC tells you different. Its been that way for many years. And I used to take a J-3 Cub with nothing but a hand held radio to DCA for lunch.

If you visually follow the river out you will make a right turn off the radial at the Roosevelt Bridge that will result in a ground track that points straight at the White House. It is a right turn the controllers don't expect, since it is not a published procedure. Following the river at 500 feet was the VFR procedure years ago when you departed runway 4.

Most of the P-56 violations by air carriers result from automation dependent pilots using standard profile TO procedures. The automation won't respond fast enough and they get a close up view of the Washington monument. The CRJ will do it if you have the radial twisted in and a heading of 300 bugged before you start the TO roll. Then select 'NAV' mode prior to 200 feet. It's a whole lot easier to hand fly it without the FD. .

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Pinnacle mandates a green needle takeoff with the DCA VOR Radial preset.

Not sure how the 900 is, but if it intecepts as well as the 200 does in green needles, it's just a matter of time before you're shot down due to a strong cross wind.

 

[jws717]

Its just like Nascar boys, go fast turn left. Even Ricky Bobby could figure it out.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I've seen 757's start their turns at 50' and be uber conservative, tracking over Clarendon practically. Then I've seen some CRJ's actually do the VFR thing flying over the river which is fine too if you can see. Deck angle is a little steep in the -700/-900 doing the full-thrust takeoff thing, so the best thing to do is set up a heading well to the LEFT of the 328, speed mode, heading mode to intercept in white needles, and for goodness sake, look out the window if you can see something of the ground.

Oh, and don't be a clown by forgetting to put in DCA VOR in the FMS and build the radial off that. Otherwise, you don't know what you're going to get. About halfway throught the takeoff roll, the DCA VOR will move to the 1st LSK as you pass by it, and become the FROM waypoint. No need to jockey that around, but make sure.

And the PCL green needle thing ain't a bad idea either..

DISCLAIMER- NOT INTENDED FOR REAL-WORLD NAVIGATION TECHNIQUE

 

[BoilerUP]

Guys, DCA ops ain't difficult.

DCA
DCA328/30
AML/BUFFR/other departure gate fix

If VMC, takeoff, at 400' or the departure end of the runway turn left toward the west bank of Roosevelt Island (which keeps you along the west bank of the Potomac), then another left turn immediately passing Rossyln for a few seconds before coming back right to intercept the white-needles 328° radial following the river northwest. This easily keeps you clear of P56A/B *and* avoids the noise-sensitive areas on the Virginia side of the river.

If you start a left turn at 400' immediately after 'gear-up' like some folks do, you will fly right over Rosslyn (if not clipping the NE corner of the Pentagon) and your airline WILL hear about it in the weekly DCA ops meeting, where they list every noise complaint they receive (with animated radar tracks of the offending aircraft). Yes, you in a CRJ passing overhead at 2000' are just as offensive in their eyes as the American MD80 that goes thundering 900' overhead.

Wash Metro Airports Authority wants crews to remain over the river as much as practical for noise abatement and stresses this point to DCA station managers in their meeting. Some pilots say "screw noise complaints, I'm not going to risk my certificates for that" but in VFR conditions it is not even remotely risky in terms of a P56 violation to visually follow the river northwest...but you gotta make that second left turn over Roosevelt Island passing Rosslyn to stay away from the Naval Observatory (P-56B).

 

[Flyer1015]

Not sure how the 900 is, but if it intecepts as well as the 200 does in green needles, it's just a matter of time before you're shot down due to a strong cross wind.

I handfly that particular departure, and use the ground-track green ball on the heading indicator to center up the green needle. Works perfectly! Too bad George is too slow to realize that.

 

[crxpilot]

And the moderator "clr4theapch" strikes again with his liberal censorship agenda. Dont worry buddy, Obama can fight his own battles. :nuts: Enjoy your 2 years left of man love for him.

 

[regionalcap]

From the 'digital terminal procedures' the only FAA published departure procedure for rwy 1 is​

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 1, left turn as soon as
practicable, intercept DCA R-328. Climb to 5000 or as assigned.​

You follow the river on the approach to 19, not the departure. If you are filed IFR the only FAA accepted departure procedure is to tune the DCA VOR and track the 328 radial out. Then stay on that radial until ATC tells you different. Its been that way for many years. And I used to take a J-3 Cub with nothing but a hand held radio to DCA for lunch.

If you visually follow the river out you will make a right turn off the radial at the Roosevelt Bridge that will result in a ground track that points straight at the White House. It is a right turn the controllers don't expect, since it is not a published procedure. Following the river at 500 feet was the VFR procedure years ago when you departed runway 4.

Most of the P-56 violations by air carriers result from automation dependent pilots using standard profile TO procedures. The automation won't respond fast enough and they get a close up view of the Washington monument. The CRJ will do it if you have the radial twisted in and a heading of 300 bugged before you start the TO roll. Then select 'NAV' mode prior to 200 feet. It's a whole lot easier to hand fly it without the FD. .

hmmm....my 10-4 page specifically says to follow the river until 4.0 DME...so I guess it is a published procedure.

 

[glasspilot]

.....deleted. Change of heart.

 

[twott driver]

Zinggg

 

[LearLove]

hmmm....my 10-4 page specifically says to follow the river until 4.0 DME...so I guess it is a published procedure.

then do you have another procedure (10-4B ?) if it is IFR, say 300 and 3/4 mi vis?

 

[LazyLightnin']

then do you have another procedure (10-4B ?) if it is IFR, say 300 and 3/4 mi vis?

Ask tower.

 

[Metro752]

the procedure says follow the river until 4dme to join the 328 out to 10 miles expect vectors

if unable to follow the river join the 328 radial



j.f.c. i cannot believe some of youz

 

[1.3XVso]

Theres this capt in 9e in dtw thats part of the safety dept. He swears he's like god of aviation, mr perfection, know it all busted p56 so i heard.

 

[sunlitpath]

Theres this capt in 9e in dtw thats part of the safety dept. He swears he's like god of aviation, mr perfection, know it all busted p56 so i heard.

Snake bites happen; beware...

 

[1.3XVso]

He's still a jackass......