comair

[flyboyike]

To be announced next week that the 70/90 fleet to be sold and the pilots who are current and qualified on those aircraft will have the option to follow to aircraft to the new owner agreeing, of course, to the prenuptials. Seniority will not be a factor. If you are a 70/90 Captain you can go and be a 70/90 Captain. If you are a 70/90 FO you can go and only be a 70/90 FO.

You had me up until "seniority won't be a factor" quip. That's when I started rolling on the floor, laughing.

 

[JECKEL]

I think what may have you laughing is you misinterpreting this as some sort of successorship or company acquisition which involves transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of a company. That would require acknowledgement of the seniority list. This would not be the case. This would be a fragmentation agreement of less than half of Comair aircraft.

Under certain fragmentation agreements the acquiring airline can offer the pilots who are CURRENTLY flying the equipment the ability to follow the aircraft to their new owner. Or they can just buy the aircraft and leave without the personnel to operate them. These 27 aircraft are being bought from Delta airlines. No one is buying Comair.

Comair has as many senior guys in the 50 as do they in the 70/90. For the acquiring company to allow pilots who have never flow the aircraft to go with it would be a huge training expense. Something the acquiring company won't pay for or agree to.

This is a fragmentation and not a sell of Comair. Different rules govern seniority and pilot rights.

 

[flyboyike]

Under certain fragmentation agreements the acquiring airline can offer the pilots who are CURRENTLY flying the equipment the ability to follow the aircraft to their new owner.

The key word being "can". My question is, why would they? What airline can you think of would welcome TM and company with open arms?

 

[JECKEL]

The key word being "can". My question is, why would they?

The key word is "can". I totally agree with you.

Why would they? I don't know.

I can speculate and devise some scenarios but they would not even be educated guesses.

That is just part of the rumor going around that has also been suggested by the MEC.

 

[agonyairfo]

In 11 years of Part 121 flying I have heard many rumors. But, these last few weeks at Comair have been altogether something else. It's so weird becuase there is change in the air and this time everyone is talking about it. The difference with the rumors this time is how widespread they are, how random they are, and how everyone passing them along says how "solid" they are. As in, "I personally spoke with the MEC chairman 5 minutes ago and he said that 'x' was DEFINITELY GOING to happen." Or, "Everyone in the G.O. knows that 'x' is going to happen...It's a done deal just waiting to make the announcement, etc."

Now rumor spreaders always say how "solid" their source is. But this time even the guys I know to be those who usually 'wait and see' and who never peddle rumors know something big is about to happen and are talking freely about it. Something is going down. I/we just don't know what yet.

One thing is for sure, Delta would like to lose more 50's. All of the other 50's out there have guaranteed flying for 10+ years. Also conveniently enough, Comair has the oldest 50's and they have no guarantees after January. So I am pretty sure among other things in our immediate future, Comair is going to lose more 50's. And probably not just 1 or 2. And unless we happen to get some new airframes (which no one is talking about...and they would have to be of the 90 or 100 seat variety which has it's own issues) like by January, I think we are looking at an incredible shrinking airline. Regardless of what else happens. Whether we get sold, or part of us gets sold, or we get stapled to the big D, or we flow-thru, or we get stapled with 100 seaters, or we get bought by some investors and the original Comair owners and we go out on our own, or we close the door, or you name it. I am sure we lose 50's in the short term and that isn't good no matter how you slice it.

So now my question is, do I preemptively scrape the bottom of the aviation job barrel available right now, or just wait to be furloughed becuase 1. a few months off while I wait for a slightly better job would be nice 2. There would be a good reason to keep my seniority number becuase there is a slim chance that things pan out in a few years.

 

[tiffanytaylor]

In 11 years of Part 121 flying I have heard many rumors. But, these last few weeks at Comair have been altogether something else. It's so weird becuase there is change in the air and this time everyone is talking about it. The difference with the rumors this time is how widespread they are, how random they are, and how everyone passing them along says how "solid" they are. As in, "I personally spoke with the MEC chairman 5 minutes ago and he said that 'x' was DEFINITELY GOING to happen." Or, "Everyone in the G.O. knows that 'x' is going to happen...It's a done deal just waiting to make the announcement, etc."

Now rumor spreaders always say how "solid" their source is. But this time even the guys I know to be those who usually 'wait and see' and who never peddle rumors know something big is about to happen and are talking freely about it. Something is going down. I/we just don't know what yet.

One thing is for sure, Delta would like to lose more 50's. All of the other 50's out there have guaranteed flying for 10+ years. Also conveniently enough, Comair has the oldest 50's and they have no guarantees after January. So I am pretty sure among other things in our immediate future, Comair is going to lose more 50's. And probably not just 1 or 2. And unless we happen to get some new airframes (which no one is talking about...and they would have to be of the 90 or 100 seat variety which has it's own issues) like by January, I think we are looking at an incredible shrinking airline. Regardless of what else happens. Whether we get sold, or part of us gets sold, or we get stapled to the big D, or we flow-thru, or we get stapled with 100 seaters, or we get bought by some investors and the original Comair owners and we go out on our own, or we close the door, or you name it. I am sure we lose 50's in the short term and that isn't good no matter how you slice it.

So now my question is, do I preemptively scrape the bottom of the aviation job barrel available right now, or just wait to be furloughed becuase 1. a few months off while I wait for a slightly better job would be nice 2. There would be a good reason to keep my seniority number becuase there is a slim chance that things pan out in a few years.

I'm waiting to be furloughed so that will give me time to find a new job. If I were you I'd just wait and if you get furloughed maybe you will be recalled. If we lose a/c, I'm pretty sure I'll be on the furlough list. I just wish we'd know something soon. If an announcement is going to be made about us losing a/c, being sold etc., why is JB waiting until 9/13 to start the employee town hall meetings. Seems like he'd start those meetings right away if we are supposed to get real bad news this Tuesday or Wednesday. I wish you and others all the best.

 

[V-1]

If you have a plan "B" now would be the time to enact it.

Now?

Five years ago would have been better.

Better late than never I guess.

I read all the fear and rumormongering and find it reminiscent of the weeks leading up to the Comair 5191 accident...an accident a very large contributing factor for was job insecurity. Here we are almost four years later to the day and nothing has changed.

I wonder how many more customers Delta is willing to kill while pursuing their effort to destabilize their crewmembers' well-being?

Delta will do whatever is in Delta's best interest. Life goes on.

 

[wmuflyguy]

If an announcement is going to be made about us losing a/c, being sold etc., why is JB waiting until 9/13 to start the employee town hall meetings. Seems like he'd start those meetings right away if we are supposed to get real bad news this Tuesday or Wednesday. I wish you and others all the best.

It's because there is nothing to announce in regards to that.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Now?

Five years ago would have been better.

Better late than never I guess.

I read all the fear and rumormongering and find it reminiscent of the weeks leading up to the Comair 5191 accident...an accident a very large contributing factor for was job insecurity. Here we are almost four years later to the day and nothing has changed.

I wonder how many more customers Delta is willing to kill while pursuing their effort to destabilize their crewmembers' well-being?

Delta will do whatever is in Delta's best interest. Life goes on.

We need to all stay focused regardless of whatever silly rumors are out there.

 

[agonyairfo]

I understand that job insecurity can be a chronic stress issue and lead crews to distraction. But... I for one am not that concerned with it. I feel like we have known this is a jacked up industry for a long time. I have gotten used to it. Of course, I only have my mouth to feed and have saved a few dollars. I appreciate that others may be in a different scenario and really have legitimate concerns. But, you want to talk stress. Ever had center say, "jot this number down!" To me it is hard to concentrate with that until you land. (Only happened once. Turned out to be nothing.)

I just don't understand people getting that worked up over it now. I always tell myself, I was flying before Comair and I will be flying long after Comair. I protect my career, my passengers, my fellow crew. I may have a job in a few months, I may not. If anything I think I appreciate the flying more (The actual flying. not the 4 hour airport breaks, frequent DHing, etc. That part still sucks. But I know that it won't last long now.)

So WMU, things are going to change. I am a level-headed, 7 year fo, who generally has a pretty good attitude, and who wants the best for Comair. I am not a naysayer. But seriously, it is pretty bleak. At most regionals it is all about new (i.e. replacement) airframes. Regional aircraft don't last forever and when they start getting up in years, like a good chunk of a/c at Comair and Piedmont, etc., the status quo is not an option. Sure we may not lose 50 a/c next year like some of the rumors go, but at best it will only be 5 or 10 and then 5 or 10 the next year, etc. I don't have a fleet break down, but the earliest RJ's have got to be on a short list to go away. Think of our CRJ 100's as Brett Favre. Ok, maybe we will get one more year out of them. But 2 more years, 3 more years? Without some replacement airframes on the near horizon we are left with a shrinking fleet.

I am not saying Comair is done forever. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't put much stock in grand plans from Delta, or their still being upset by the strike, or us being "marked" as red headed step children. There are a thousand factors and things are very dynamic. It could all boil down to an arbitrary board room decision in Atlanta. Crazy things happen. Maybe we will be flying the new C-series in 3 years. I truly believe anything can happen. I bet money that we do get an announcement and it will be something that we haven't even heard of yet. I.E., Soaper got canned and I didn't hear a peep about it before it happened. But as for our fate, no news will be bad news. Comair is a sinking ship unless positive changes take place. Present course is a shrinking airline.

So...WEBN is buying us. There you go. Heard it here first. And we will get one 757 to fly the Bengals and the Reds to games.

 

[tiffanytaylor]

It's because there is nothing to announce in regards to that.

How do you know?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sadly, I think this rumor has merit. We have seen this before with Pan Am and Delta. The Duke Spellacy lawsuit was a result of something similar to this.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Email address has been established:

[email protected]

This IS NOT a decertification effort. I am looking for people to support LEC resolutions to give CMR pilots preferential hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH.
__________________

 

[enuffalready]

As a ten year ASA guy i agree with a lot of what you say.....however, not this time. I'm on the 50. So youre saying, if roles were reversed, that a 4 year ASA fo on the 70 would get Doh at comair while I got walking papers?

 

[CFI2766]

Sadly, I think this rumor has merit. We have seen this before with Pan Am and Delta. The Duke Spellacy lawsuit was a result of something similar to this.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

What is your objective here?

What are you looking to accomplish?

What is in the zone amongst our peers with regard to reasonableness on this idea?

What would your response be when you are asked about how your own personal seniority factored into this decision?

What would your response be when asked about your proposal by an ASA FO just coming back off of furlough?

I could support their CMH DOH for longevity purposes, but I'm not going to support guys coming to our list with other carriers DOH for bidding purposes. If we collectively decided to do that, why stop at CMH? Why not have a furloughed Delta guy bump everyone, including the senior lifers who intend to stay at ASA for the duration, on the ASA list down a spot? Why not have a furloughed CAL/UAL guy do the same thing? How about a furloughed Eastern guy? Braniff? TWA? Pan-Am?

 

[Ad Lib]

As a ten year ASA guy i agree with a lot of what you say.....however, not this time. I'm on the 50. So youre saying, if roles were reversed, that a 4 year ASA fo on the 70 would get Doh at comair while I got walking papers?

We know that while ASA was in Section 6, Comair's MEC approached management to secure ASA flying by offering to cut Comair rates below ASA's. Ironically, the Comair MEC sent "We Support You" stickers to the ASA pilots, while ASA pilots were getting displaced and downgraded. As an ASA pilot, that "support" earned my enmity for Comair's then MEC. Delta pilots have similar concerns after JC Lawson wrote that mixing Delta crews on Comair flight decks could be a safety issue if they kept their Delta numbers while on furlough.

Despite the Comair MEC's unique ability to offend nearly everyone they have come into contact with, I agree Joe's idea would be the right thing to do, IF the airplanes come over on a long term agreement. Otherwise, he's just selling out his First Officers by giving preference to pilots at another airline. Generally, in this business you pick your carrier and live with the result for better or worse. Most of us don't get a "do over" without having to start at the bottom.

Joe's attempt to paddle the ASA life raft over to the Titanic is very generous. But, as even he mentions, it is risky for ALPA to administer.

IMHO, the rumors of Comair's imminent demise are overblown. When does the Comair contract open for negotiations? A lot of this sounds like the usual management posturing. ... and if a sale to SkyWest is in the works, then be happy. Sure beats Hulas.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Joe,
To clarify your remarks, is your proposal contingent on airplanes also coming over with pilots, or just adding their pilots to the Atlantic Southeast seniority list?

 

[General Lee]

I understand that job insecurity can be a chronic stress issue and lead crews to distraction. But... I for one am not that concerned with it. I feel like we have known this is a jacked up industry for a long time. I have gotten used to it. Of course, I only have my mouth to feed and have saved a few dollars. I appreciate that others may be in a different scenario and really have legitimate concerns. But, you want to talk stress. Ever had center say, "jot this number down!" To me it is hard to concentrate with that until you land. (Only happened once. Turned out to be nothing.)

I just don't understand people getting that worked up over it now. I always tell myself, I was flying before Comair and I will be flying long after Comair. I protect my career, my passengers, my fellow crew. I may have a job in a few months, I may not. If anything I think I appreciate the flying more (The actual flying. not the 4 hour airport breaks, frequent DHing, etc. That part still sucks. But I know that it won't last long now.)

So WMU, things are going to change. I am a level-headed, 7 year fo, who generally has a pretty good attitude, and who wants the best for Comair. I am not a naysayer. But seriously, it is pretty bleak. At most regionals it is all about new (i.e. replacement) airframes. Regional aircraft don't last forever and when they start getting up in years, like a good chunk of a/c at Comair and Piedmont, etc., the status quo is not an option. Sure we may not lose 50 a/c next year like some of the rumors go, but at best it will only be 5 or 10 and then 5 or 10 the next year, etc. I don't have a fleet break down, but the earliest RJ's have got to be on a short list to go away. Think of our CRJ 100's as Brett Favre. Ok, maybe we will get one more year out of them. But 2 more years, 3 more years? Without some replacement airframes on the near horizon we are left with a shrinking fleet.

I am not saying Comair is done forever. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't put much stock in grand plans from Delta, or their still being upset by the strike, or us being "marked" as red headed step children. There are a thousand factors and things are very dynamic. It could all boil down to an arbitrary board room decision in Atlanta. Crazy things happen. Maybe we will be flying the new C-series in 3 years. I truly believe anything can happen. I bet money that we do get an announcement and it will be something that we haven't even heard of yet. I.E., Soaper got canned and I didn't hear a peep about it before it happened. But as for our fate, no news will be bad news. Comair is a sinking ship unless positive changes take place. Present course is a shrinking airline.

So...WEBN is buying us. There you go. Heard it here first. And we will get one 757 to fly the Bengals and the Reds to games.

My advice, go to Colgan, get some PIC, and move on. Seriously, Comair seems like a sinking ship. You may want to get on with someone else ahead of the next wave. And, it is doubtful you will get a 757.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'm waiting to be furloughed so that will give me time to find a new job. If I were you I'd just wait and if you get furloughed maybe you will be recalled. If we lose a/c, I'm pretty sure I'll be on the furlough list. I just wish we'd know something soon. If an announcement is going to be made about us losing a/c, being sold etc., why is JB waiting until 9/13 to start the employee town hall meetings. Seems like he'd start those meetings right away if we are supposed to get real bad news this Tuesday or Wednesday. I wish you and others all the best.

Apply to Delta. They supposedly will hire around 700 stews coming up here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tiffanytaylor]

Apply to Delta. They supposedly will hire around 700 stews coming up here.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't enjoy my job anymore. I get 11 days off per month here and would like tobbe home more. I don't know what life is like for fas there..probably better. Id love to start a pet sitting business and work with animals like a vet tech.