IFR Training - capturing the localizer

[shon7]

For IFR Training if a student misjudges his position and the localizer needle suddenly comes alive and swings do you encourage him to make a sharp turn and keep the localizer active or is that too risky.

We were having a debate with two CFIs - both had valid points of views.
One said that in actual conditions the most important thing is not to lose the localizer while the other stated that you want to avoid a sharp turn in such a scenario as you are too desparate to keep the localizer and thus might actually make too sharp a turn inadvertently.

Your thoughts?

 

[JAFI]

.
One said that in actual conditions the most important thing is not to lose the localizer...

while the other stated that you want to avoid a sharp turn in such a scenario as you are too desparate to keep the localizer and thus might actually make too sharp a turn inadvertently.

Your thoughts?

IMHO the MOST important thing is to keep flying the aircraft. A steep turn in IMC can induce vertigo. Steep turns (anything beyond standard rate) and vertigo inducing maneuvers are to be avoided.

Intercepting a localizer at too steep an angle (horizonal) is not uncommon. The student needs to learn how to calmly recapture or to maneuver to capture with out aerobatic maneuvers.

Unless you are intercepting the localizer in a narrow canyon below the rim I would ask what is the hurry?

 

[pilotyip]

what kind of intercept angle are we taking about?

 

[shon7]

intercept angle of 30 degrees

 

[Lynxman]

That's not very much. You should be able to do that with out banking to much if all else fails though ask for vectors around to reintercept if you're not comfy.

 

[pilotyip]

Shouldn't be a problem

intercept angle of 30 degrees

We do that in jets, and there is no problem capturing LOC even at 140 KTs, and you don't even start your turn at LOC breaking case. This is intercepting abut 5 miles from the maker. Are you close in?

 

[brokeflyer]

sounds like at least one of you cfi's needs to go get some dual from a real cfi somewhere.

there shouldn't even be a discussion about this.

 

[Flex-ible]

sounds like at least one of you cfi's needs to go get some dual from a real cfi somewhere.

there shouldn't even be a discussion about this.

I assume because you agree that no turn should be made at more than standard rate. If you can't make the turn, go missed and ask ATC for another vector. Stall/spin is too much a possibility.

 

[Hobiehawker]

More than standard rate is not a steep turn. You fly standard rate to minimize aero dynamic changes and to allow time for an effective scan.

If your performance declines with more than standard rate then you should discontinue the approach and try again. If not, then you can continue the approach.

 

[J.Otto]

For IFR Training if a student misjudges his position and the localizer needle suddenly comes alive and swings do you encourage him to make a sharp turn and keep the localizer active or is that too risky.

We were having a debate with two CFIs - both had valid points of views.
One said that in actual conditions the most important thing is not to lose the localizer while the other stated that you want to avoid a sharp turn in such a scenario as you are too desparate to keep the localizer and thus might actually make too sharp a turn inadvertently.

Your thoughts?

During a training scenario, I feel it's perfectly fine to perform whatever bank angle is required (within reason; up 45) to recapture. Bank angles up to 45 degrees should be practiced to proficiency during instrument training. This is to hone better the skills and feelings duirng these more "extreme" maneuvers. You should be able to execute these maneuvers if necessary, under IMC.

 

[propilot]

During a training scenario, I feel it's perfectly fine to perform whatever bank angle is required (within reason; up 45) to recapture. Bank angles up to 45 degrees should be practiced to proficiency during instrument training. This is to hone better the skills and feelings duirng these more "extreme" maneuvers. You should be able to execute these maneuvers if necessary, under IMC.

Your joking right?!?! There is no reason, aside from an emergency situation or practicing actual steep turns, to ever fly a 45 degree bank while on instruments. You are instilling very bad habits into your students. Train like you fly, fly like you train. They should be one and the same...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

sounds like at least one of you cfi's needs to go get some dual from a real cfi somewhere.

there shouldn't even be a discussion about this.

I agree.

Any turn from standard rate up to 30 degrees bank is OK to capture a course. Once on the approach course the bank angles should be at a minimum.

 

[JAFI]

Remember the OP said this was a student pilot and in Instrument training. A student will over fly a course and they need to experence the mistakes in training to be prepared when they are on their own in IMC. I would not train a student to even do a 30 degree bank (in a light training aircraft and yes I know a large jet can do a 30 or even a 45 degree bank in IMC just fine) because when they are on their own they can bank much steeper if they are taught to "React" and not to "PLAN better".

I know of a student while intercepting a ILS rolled inverted (kept the turn going) before the Instructor could recover. The student was not doing well and HAD to make this approach to impress his instructor. Unless the fuel tanks are bumping empty, you are on fire, or a similar situation IMHO an Instructor should teach that the approach (or landing) can be redone with everthing going well other than trying to force a bad approach.

 

[satpak77]

For IFR Training if a student misjudges his position and the localizer needle suddenly comes alive and swings do you encourage him to make a sharp turn and keep the localizer active or is that too risky.

We were having a debate with two CFIs - both had valid points of views.
One said that in actual conditions the most important thing is not to lose the localizer while the other stated that you want to avoid a sharp turn in such a scenario as you are too desparate to keep the localizer and thus might actually make too sharp a turn inadvertently.

Your thoughts?

I have more heartburn over the belief that "you must not loose the localizor." Who cares. And who cares if it is "actual?" What does that have to do with this? The root theme to all this is "the localizor". Actual or VMC your training and response should be the same. I don't change my response to a stall horn depending if I am IMC or VMC.

Back to the question- Ok, you misjudged, so what else down the road did you Fu-Bar? Advise ATC you wish to come back around and re-configure. The localizor is not going anywhere. Go back and get it, but stabilized and hopefully with a little more SA.

go back to NTSB/AOPA/etc statistics and most fatalities arise out of a bungled approach (both IMC and VMC) and loss of control (stall, spin, takeoff stall, etc etc). Carb Ice or the lav not flushing is not what is killing pilots. It is 2010 and we have G-1000's, HUDs, TAWS, Mode-S, and what is killing pilots is Basic Flying Stuff 101.

Did I answer the question? My feeling is go back around and re-intercept the localizor. You can never get hurt by slowing things down and trying it again. However the graveyard is full of pilots, PPL to ATP, who tried to "make it work".

 

[J.Otto]

Your joking right?!?! There is no reason, aside from an emergency situation or practicing actual steep turns, to ever fly a 45 degree bank while on instruments. You are instilling very bad habits into your students. Train like you fly, fly like you train. They should be one and the same...

no not joking. I think I may not have been so clear. Under a training scenario I find it perfectly acceptable. One should have command and be able to execute this maneuever proficiently, even if not used. Same thing with stalls. bring the plane close to its envelope (or the pilots skills) to increase abilites. As you say in an emergency, if necessary to be able to execute it. One needs to practice this in the training environment. This exercise is more about attaining a high level of hand-flying skill and familiartiy with hopw the plane responds under high load conditions and steep bank angles. The feelings are different. If you only let your student fly at shallow standard rate turns, they never learn or are able to handle steep turns in IMC. Not good exposure. Of coruse, inthe system day to day, one should not make it a habit of such angles. I think you understand what Im getting at here.

 

[JAFI]

If you only let your student fly at shallow standard rate turns, they never learn or are able to handle steep turns in IMC. Not good exposure. Of coruse, inthe system day to day, one should not make it a habit of such angles. I think you understand what Im getting at here.

I agree BUT, it depends on the ability of the student and where they are in their training. Start them out walking before they run..... And keep a good supply of barf bags just in case......

 

[satpak77]

For IFR Training if a student misjudges his position and the localizer needle suddenly comes alive and swings do you encourage him to make a sharp turn and keep the localizer active or is that too risky.

We were having a debate with two CFIs - both had valid points of views.
One said that in actual conditions the most important thing is not to lose the localizer while the other stated that you want to avoid a sharp turn in such a scenario as you are too desparate to keep the localizer and thus might actually make too sharp a turn inadvertently.

Your thoughts?

Based on the original post, I think the best course is to re-intercept the LOC. Now, big picture IFR training ? Yes, exposure to unusual attitudes and steep turns, banks, etc under the hood can only be beneficial. HOWEVER ! The "trained respone" to the above scenario should be re-capture the localizor.

 

[livin'thesim]

Definitely do not train over a 30 degree bank.

Under pressure in actual conditions, a pilot may do that reflexively because you permitted it during training. This is the same reason I don't let students land from a bad approach.

It teaches them that good approaches are a separate maneuver from landing, rather than a precondition of landing.


Anyway, the instructor who is worried about LOSING (not "loosing") the localizer has his priorities wrong.

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Aircraft control takes precedence.

Also, I bet that instructor does not know that most of the time you have at LEAST 4 miles of slop on either side of the localizer as long as you are prior to the FAF (at the PT outbound altitude).


Unless there is terrain at your altitude on the other side of the loc, or traffic on a parallel ILS, a panicky overbank to join will teach all of the wrong things to a student.