Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Eagle union politics and Contract 2013

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

beagle pilot

Airline Pilot
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Posts
110
I've seen on other message boards and in the crew room that some people are preaching doom and gloom in 2013. I don't believe our fate is sealed nor that we are all going to be "toast" in 2013. OTOH, what I do believe is that we will have a better contract in 2013 if we stand together as opposed to fighting each other for company crumbs.


"Unity is strength". The company is unified by the fact their jobs depend upon following the orders of the company president. They must all comply or they will be replaced. It's that simple. OTOH, our union pilots do not have to comply with our union leadership. We're a bottom-up organization run by volunteers. We elect our leadership. The only obligation for each member is to pay dues. If that is all they do, then our union is weak. If a few, say 4%, of the members volunteer to do the work, then that helps, but the results are not as pleasing to the membership as if more members actually participated in their own union.

BTW, 4-6% is about what we have at the moment and for the past several years. The remaining 94-96% sit back and bitch if not actively work against our own Union. This is their right, but it isn't an optimal solution for negotiating the best contract possible against a unified company. Worse, when we fight each other or actively to deprive each other of rights, we are actually making the company's job easier for them.

I'm not preaching that we'll be screwed in 2013. I'm saying that we won't maximize our gains if we don't have better unity, cooperation and activism on the part of our membership. There's a difference.

The recent opportunistic move by some of our members and leaders to sacrifice 500+ Union pilots for the betterment of the remaining 2300 pilots is detrimental to unity since even those who gain from the move would lose trust in an organization which preys on its own members.

There are many lessons to be learned from our mistakes:

1. Educate our members on what unionism means and how it works. Too many think it's like going to Burger King. That, by virtue of paying their dues, they can "have it their way". A union isn't service even though it does provide some services. We must work as a group while respecting the rights of the individual.

2. Minimize rumors and false ideas by more crew room visits and teleconferences.

3. Union leaders need to treat members like adults and not patronize, or worse, ply them with false hopes about where the industry is going. People don't like being told the truth when it hurts, but adults appreciate it more than being misled with "happy thoughts" which will never happen. Tell'em the truth straight up and don't sugar coat it.

4. Union leaders need to act less like politicians and more like UNION leaders. Union members need to start acting less like customers and more like UNION members.

A few Aesop's fables to illustrate the main points of why it is important we have a strong union for 2013:

The Father and His Sons
A father had a family of sons who were perpetually quarreling among themselves. When he failed to heal their disputes by his exhortations, he determined to give them a practical illustration of the evils of disunion; and for this purpose he one day told them to bring him a bundle of sticks. When they had done so, he placed the bundle into the hands of each of them in succession, and ordered them to break it in pieces. They tried with all their strength, and were not able to do it. He next opened the bundle, took the sticks separately, one by one, and again put them into his sons' hands, upon which they broke them easily. He then addressed them in these words: "My sons, if you are of one mind, and unite to assist each other, you will be as this bundle, uninjured by all the attempts of your enemies; but if you are divided among yourselves, you will be broken as easily as these sticks."
The moral of the story: There is strength in unity.


The Lion and Three Bulls
Three Bulls were grazing in a meadow, and were watched by a Lion, who longed to capture and eat them, but who felt he was no match for the three so long as they kept together; whenever he came near they turned their tails to one another, so that whichever way he approached them he was met by the horns of one of them.

So he began by false whispers and rumors to cause jealousy and distrust among them. This method worked so well that at last, the Bulls grew cold and unfriendly, and finally avoided each other, and fed each one by himself. Then the Lion attacked them one by one and soon ate all three.
The moral of the story: The quarrels of friends are the opportunities of foes.


The Trees and the Axe
A man came into a Wood one day and begged of the Trees the favor of a handle for his Axe. The Trees voted to sacrifice a young ash sapling.

The Man made the sapling into a handle and fixed it into the axe head, and soon set to work cutting down tree after tree. When Trees realized how the Man was using their gift, they cried "we have only ourselves to blame. The little we gave has cost us all: had we not sacrificed the rights of the ash, we might ourselves have stood for ages."
The moral of the story: Those who sacrifice the rights of others deserve to lose their own rights and often do.
 
Isn't the world supposed to end sometime during 2012?
 
That's what my Aztec calender shows!!

That's a myth spread in western culture. The Aztec calendar ends in 2012 but it does in no way mean the world will end they just never extended it. In fact if you ask around the tribes of that area they have no idea about 2012 or end of a world.
 
That's a myth spread in western culture.
And the makers of expensive Hollywood B-movies. ;)

End of the world or not, if we don't get our acts together as a union, we'll be wishing the world would end rather than face another four years of lousy schedules, low FO pay and deteriorating QOL.
 
And the makers of expensive Hollywood B-movies. ;)

End of the world or not, if we don't get our acts together as a union, we'll be wishing the world would end rather than face another four years of lousy schedules, low FO pay and deteriorating QOL.

you are assuming that the contract would be finished in 2013. I think I will be drug out for years like many other union contracts. The only way it would be finished in the year 2013 would be if we gave into all the company demands.
 
you are assuming that the contract would be finished in 2013. I think I will be drug out for years like many other union contracts. The only way it would be finished in the year 2013 would be if we gave into all the company demands.

Not assuming anything of the sort. It becomes negotiable in 2013. Depending on the market conditions, I expect as a minimum of one year and up to three years worth of negotiations before a new one is up for a vote.

Those who've been through contract negotiations before know that how a company approaches contract negotiations depends, in part, on how strong a union they are facing. Those who've been through contract negotiations before would understand why without me going into details about it.
 
Last edited:
3. Union leaders need to treat members like adults and not patronize, or worse, ply them with false hopes about where the industry is going. People don't like being told the truth when it hurts, but adults appreciate it more than being misled with "happy thoughts" which will never happen. Tell'em the truth straight up and don't sugar coat it.

4. Union leaders need to act less like politicians and more like UNION leaders. Union members need to start acting less like customers and more like UNION members.

Good luck on this one! Reps are there for one reason....themselves.
Look around at all the other MEC reps out there. They're there to make life better for themselves and the top of the seniority list.
They don't know how to act like anything other than a politician. When they go to all their "training" sessions at ALPO HQ's, they're trained to act like politicians.
 
Good luck on this one! Reps are there for one reason....themselves.
Look around at all the other MEC reps out there. They're there to make life better for themselves and the top of the seniority list.
They don't know how to act like anything other than a politician. When they go to all their "training" sessions at ALPO HQ's, they're trained to act like politicians.

And you are there for...............yourself? Move out of your glass house!
 
Look around at all the other MEC reps out there. They're there to make life better for themselves and the top of the seniority list.
They don't know how to act like anything other than a politician.

In a Democracy, the people get the government they deserve - Alexis de Tocqueville

If your reps aren't doing the job, then why don't you replace them? If there are no other suitable candidates, why not run yourself?
 
If your reps aren't doing the job, then why don't you replace them? If there are no other suitable candidates, why not run yourself?

Because I'm too busy working a 4th job, so I can pay for the lazy POS's health care....You know, because that President ALPO endorsed got elected.
 
Because I'm too busy working a 4th job, so I can pay for the lazy POS's health care....You know, because that President ALPO endorsed got elected.

Great news! I hear the new health care plan has an excellent "Anger Management" program. It includes heavily sound proofed rooms for whiners too, so don't worry about the noise. See ya' when ya' get out!
 
Great news! I hear the new health care plan has an excellent "Anger Management" program. It includes heavily sound proofed rooms for whiners too, so don't worry about the noise. See ya' when ya' get out!

I'm already out! Got sick and tired of sitting next to slacked jawed Nancys like you who accept the abuse.
 
I'm already out! Got sick and tired of sitting next to slacked jawed Nancys like you who accept the abuse.

It appears it didn't take. Next time your cycle through the program may be under court order, not simply voluntary......or was it not voluntary this time?

Back on topic, how do you think the civil war going on in our union will affect the outcome of our contract negotiations beginning on 2013? Please explain your reasoning.
 
Don't worry about arguing with him. He jerks off to anti-ALPA signs. Just go through Flightinfo and read his past posts. 90% of them are off topic and anti-ALPA. Draw your own conclusions.
 
Don't worry about arguing with him. He jerks off to anti-ALPA signs. Just go through Flightinfo and read his past posts. 90% of them are off topic and anti-ALPA. Draw your own conclusions.

LOL. Thanks for the tip. I can understand how many pilots are frustrated, angry and fearful about the direction of the airline industry after the past few decades. What I don't understand is why they don't understand that tearing down their own pilot group will hurt them even worse. It's like burning down one's own house because they frustrated about finding a better job.
 
Last edited:
Back on topic, how do you think the civil war going on in our union will affect the outcome of our contract negotiations beginning on 2013? Please explain your reasoning.
As long as ALPA is "representing" the regionals and majors together, the war will never end.
As long as ALPA is representing every regional flying the same equipment for different pay rates, the war will never end.
 
Don't worry about arguing with him. He jerks off to anti-ALPA signs. Just go through Flightinfo and read his past posts. 90% of them are off topic and anti-ALPA. Draw your own conclusions.

Sorry if I can see through all the smoke that they blow, and don't accept their excuses as to why the profession is getting worse.
They have been fighting time and duty for the last 50 yrs. Nothing has been done. After the BUF Colgan crash we were told it was going to be signed, sealed and delivered by 1-1-2010. Ok, so almost 4 months after that date, where is it?
Even after that crash, Prater in his ever so important seat on "CapHill" still can't pull the trigger.
But instead he has pushed through this new agreement about airplanes sitting on the ramp without a gate for "X" amount of hours.
 
LOL. I see what you mean, DGdaPilot. He's so anti-ALPA he can't even see the other factors at play in Washington, DC. It is interesting to see he thinks ALPA has so much power. I wish more Senators and Representatives would believe ALPA is all powerful. Maybe we'd get more things done favorable to labor.
 
LOL. I see what you mean, DGdaPilot. He's so anti-ALPA he can't even see the other factors at play in Washington, DC. It is interesting to see he thinks ALPA has so much power. I wish more Senators and Representatives would believe ALPA is all powerful. Maybe we'd get more things done favorable to labor.

Then maybe ALPA, PFT128 and Rez shouldn't pretend to have so much power, especially with that all important seat they have on "CapHill", because that's why they have it, right? It's that where all the big guys sit and get the work done?
According to you guys ALPA's new motto should be "Hey, we're really thinking about getting something done, but we just don't have that kind of power"

They should stick to producing aviation safety magazines and that's it. Charge for the subscription just like Sports Illustrated does. But I'm not sure they would sell a magazine filled with a bunch of middle aged, balding guys with mustaches as they hand each other "atta boy" awards...."Congrats to Captain Jack Meeoff for shutting the airplane down at BWI last night without setting it on fire for the third time!"
 
You whine and complain a lot, WayBack, but I do not see any constructive criticism. What solutions do you propose to fix the problems?
 
You whine and complain a lot, WayBack, but I do not see any constructive criticism. What solutions do you propose to fix the problems?

He-he. His solutions involve rearranging the letters in "ALPA" in comical ways, and then typing out multi-sentence rants during the Reno 911 commercial breaks. If you're expecting anything deeper than that, you will be sorely disappointed.
 
You whine and complain a lot, WayBack, but I do not see any constructive criticism. What solutions do you propose to fix the problems?

I know you mean well and want to improve the future of this industry, but it's not going to happen here.
You see it as whining and complaining. I see it as being sick of having to watch my back from not only management, but the "Union".
From my experience, our local was more pro-management than our management was.
 
He-he. His solutions involve rearranging the letters in "ALPA" in comical ways, and then typing out multi-sentence rants during the Reno 911 commercial breaks. If you're expecting anything deeper than that, you will be sorely disappointed.

For deeper conversations, go to Starbucks or Borders, grab a cup of "Joe" and philosophize.
If you want Anti-ALPA ranting or jokes about pee, poo and farts...come to me.
 
Like I said in post 24.....

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this. I had to go back and double check. I was pretty sure I quote your post #24, therefore you really have no reason to point out the fact that you've already said it.
That's unless you're just bored while sitting your 18th ready reserve that your ALPA reps negotiated for you.
You see, here in the 91/135 world, we don't sit ready reserves. We're given atleast 24 hours heads up. But seeing the plane is in MX, I have 3 weeks off.

I got paid on Monday, so now I can go look at that new Camaro SS. Just don't know where to park it, maybe an additional garage needs to be built, because I can't let both BMW's sit outside. Damn I miss those regional days of driving a 1984 Honda Civic, you could park that baby anywhere.
 
Sorry it took me so long to reply to this. I had to go back and double check. I was pretty sure I quote your post #24, therefore you really have no reason to point out the fact that you've already said it.
That's unless you're just bored while sitting your 18th ready reserve that your ALPA reps negotiated for you.
You see, here in the 91/135 world, we don't sit ready reserves. We're given atleast 24 hours heads up. But seeing the plane is in MX, I have 3 weeks off.

I got paid on Monday, so now I can go look at that new Camaro SS. Just don't know where to park it, maybe an additional garage needs to be built, because I can't let both BMW's sit outside. Damn I miss those regional days of driving a 1984 Honda Civic, you could park that baby anywhere.

A few points:

1) The "mine is bigger than yours" game is juvenile at best. Let me illustrate with an example. I'm a widebody F/O making 6 figures to sit at home and fly one or two 3 day trips a month, literally. That's what ALPA has negotiated for us at our airline. I don't know what "ready reserve" is and I'm not sure if I even have ever sat "ready reserve." I don't think we even have that at our airline unless it's known by some other name. Regardless, if what you are saying is true about your work schedule, you would have to agree that it is not typical for a pilot operating in the 91/135 world, just as my schedule is atypical for an airline guy. But I guess the point of your statement was, "Look at me. Look at how wonderful I am." Great for you, Wayback.

2) The references to BMWs and the Camaro SS are lame at best. To reference one's automobiles as some sort of status status symbol........? In fact, if you read a book like "The Millionaire Next Door," you'll find that most people with a high net worth drive cars that are relatively mundane and buy used, inexpensive cars. Perhaps you did the same, perhaps you didn't. But I suspect that if you're bragging about the type and brand of cars you drive, you probably didn't and probably waste several hundred dollars per month on car payments and/or waste the opportunity cost of the cash used to purchase new cars like that Camaro SS. Again, probably not the smartest thing in the world to do for a person who works as a pilot in ANY section of the aviation industry, but it makes you feel like a big man, I guess whatever floats your boat.

3) I'm sure the commercial break for Reno 911 is just about over and your attention span is probably limited to about that length of time, so you can stop reading here.

4) Sorry to the rest of you for the thread drift. I'll stop now.
 
1) The "mine is bigger than yours" game is juvenile at best.

Yes, but obviously it got under your skin.
Wow, 6 figures in the right seat of a wide body!? Totally Awesome, Dude! You tell girls that at the bar?
Oh, wait! SWA FO's make more than that on that little 737.
Just think how much you'd be making now if you hadn't taken all the paycuts. But hey, your new MEC chair, she's going to try sugar instead of vinegar. That will win over management.

Sorry, I have to go now. Need to go buy a new money counting machine. The old broke because of all the money I was feeding through it. I would count it myself, but when your salary is like mine, you pay others to do the little work.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom