US major airline pay perspective

[GogglesPisano]

Kudos to our German colleagues. What a sad, pathetic state of affairs the US pilot profession has become.




Lufthansa pilots suspend strike
A strike by about 4,000 pilots at German airline Lufthansa has been suspended - with union officials agreeing to resume negotiations.

The action - which had been scheduled to run for four days - was called off after less than 24 hours of delays and cancellations for passengers.

The pilots had walked out at Lufthansa, Lufthansa Cargo and Germanwings over job security and pay issues.

There will be no further action until at least March 9, the union said.

A spokesman for the Cockpit union added the two sides had reached an agreement after a two-hour long hearing at a Frankfurt industrial court.

'Disproportionate'

However the strike has already disrupted an estimated 10,000 passengers around the world, with the carrier trying to arrange alternative travel for them.

It had been offering train journeys to domestic air travellers, and attempting to rebook international passengers on other airlines.

The airline normally offers about 1,800 flights daily - of which 160 are long-haul trips.

A Lufthansa spokeswoman said that about 960 flights had managed to go ahead.

The strike will be officially lifted at midnight on Monday (2300GMT) - but it is not clear when services will return to normal.

Lufthansa's earlier offer of negotiations with the pilots was not initially taken up on Sunday before the strike began.

Earlier a Lufthansa spokeswoman told the Associated Press that an injunction had been filed in Frankfurt, saying the action was "disproportionate".

'Unfounded'

German Transport Minister Peter Ramsauer had warned that the strike would hurt the country's economy as well as Lufthansa's reputation.

The airline - one of the world's largest - feared the action could cost it about 25m euros (£21.9m; $34m) per day.

The Cockpit union had arranged the action amid concerns the airline was increasingly relying on foreign pilots who fly for less pay.

It is worried that the company could try to cut staff costs by shifting jobs to foreign subsidiaries such as Austrian Airlines or Lufthansa Italia, where wages are lower.

The starting salary for a first officer in a Lufthansa cockpit is 62,000 euros, and 115,000 euros for a captain, according to the company's recruiting website.

Media reports say pilots' salaries can rise up to about 325,000 euros.
Cockpit has called for a 6.4% pay rise for pilots, more say in company decisions and commitments that pilots would keep their jobs when Lufthansa moves passengers to cheaper foreign affiliates.

But Andreas Bartels from the airline told the BBC the pilots' fear that their jobs would be outsourced was unfounded.

"That's what they fear but that's not reality. If you look to the reality, it's nothing like replacing or transferring jobs to other companies or other airlines [in] the Lufthansa airline system," he said.

Last-minute failure


LUFTHANSA

•Founded 1926
•Passengers: 76.5 million in 2009
•Flights: 893,200 in 2009
•Net loss: 32m euros in Jan-Sep 2009
•Employees: 118,945 as of Sep 2009 Source: Lufthansa

Like most other global airlines, Lufthansa has struggled in the downturn. Sales slumped 13% in the first nine months of 2009.

As well as suffering from the more recent drop in consumer demand, the airline has also been facing the long-running threats posed by low-cost airlines and high fuel costs.

The UK's flagship carrier British Airways has also been locked in a dispute with cabin crew over pay and changes to working conditions.

Members of the Unite union voted overwhelmingly on Monday to take action - but did not immediately announce strike dates saying they hoped to negotiate with BA

In France, air traffic controllers are planning a four-day strike at Paris' Charles de Gaulle and Orly airports.

Unions have called for the strike from Tuesday to Friday in protest at plans to integrate European air traffic control, fearing it would lead to a loss of French jobs and civil servant benefits.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/business/8529352.stm

Published: 2010/02/22 19:43:07 GMT

© BBC MMX

 

[Mike man]

62,000 EURO is about 84,000 USD

325,000 EURO is about 442,000 USD

Not bad...except cost of living is astronomical and you will pay 42% income tax on your 62,000 euros plus a "city" tax of 14%-17%.

A one bed room one bath 625 square foot apartment near Frankfurt will run you 1250 euros plus utilities...

Anyway, I guess I'm saying the grass is not always greener, but the beer is better...




Germany individual income tax rates ,2009
Tax % Tax Base (EUR) 0 Up to 7,834 14% 7,835-52,552 42% 52,553-250,400 45% 250,401 and over

 

[Jon Rivoli]

The starting salary for a first officer in a Lufthansa cockpit is 62,000 euros, and 115,000 euros for a captain, according to the company's recruiting website.

Media reports say pilots' salaries can rise up to about 325,000 euros.

Now take off 55% for taxes and it don't look much different from here.

 

[BigMeat]

you guys are so dumb. Even with 40% percent taxes they still make more than us. Plus because of those taxes they dont have to pay so much out of the ass for the benefits we pay for. So even though they are taxed they have kept it together more so than we have. Before you open your mouth and make yourself look stupid...think.

 

[Tweaker]

They would salivate and ejaculate with taxes as low as 40%! You are off by 20%+.

Also, "we" don't pay for benefits like medical to any significant degree. We have them covered for the most part by negotiated employer paid premiums. It is a part of total compensation. Don't even start that we don't have about the best available medical services in the USA.

Add to the fact that I have the best beer, as a homebrewer as well as many other benefits that come with being an American citizen, and we still come out respectable.

This is all apples to oranges, due to the .gov exerting varying degrees of control and perverting typical marketplace situations here versus anywhere else. We still have quasi-regulation, but it is light compared to most places. What we have is worse, than heavy regulation, and proper de-regulation, but I'll not drift the thread.

Good for them to have a proper livable wage for new hires, but realize this, too. With Ab Initio, the pilots who begin to fly the heavy plastic buses for Luft, have been employees of the airline for a long time while they build exp., licenses and time. No way to compare anything really.

 

[Max Powers]

you guys are so dumb. Even with 40% percent taxes they still make more than us. Plus because of those taxes they dont have to pay so much out of the ass for the benefits we pay for. So even though they are taxed they have kept it together more so than we have. Before you open your mouth and make yourself look stupid...think.

Exactly!!!!

Plus your write offs - for Children, Mortgage insterest, etc is much more significant. Your pension (social security) is also worth a lot more. My Dutch relatives pay roughly the same taxes as I do. Yet make a heck of a lot more money. Housing, food etc. is quite a bit more but, have you seen the WOMEN over there?

 

[Max Powers]

They would salivate and ejaculate with taxes as low as 40%! You are off by 20%+.

Also, "we" don't pay for benefits like medical to any significant degree. We have them covered for the most part by negotiated employer paid premiums. It is a part of total compensation. Don't even start that we don't have about the best available medical services in the USA. Are you serious? WE don't pay for medical services? I pay a very high premium at my company. And when my company pays the rest; it is potential income I will never see. We pay over 7200k per person on health care and come out 40th overall in infant mortality and 38th in longevity. All European countries beat us handily and pay roughly 3000k. We over prescribe and waste much of the great health care we have.

Add to the fact that I have the best beer, as a homebrewer as well as many other benefits that come with being an American citizen, and we still come out respectable. You mean being able to carry a gun. That will help you a lot when you get held up by some undereducated fool who decides to shoot you in the face because he has the drop on you. Take it from a former Marine: A hand gun outside the war zone will never protect you, unless you walk around in a state of 24/7 paranoia ready to draw anytime anywhere.

This is all apples to oranges, due to the .gov exerting varying degrees of control and perverting typical marketplace situations here versus anywhere else. We still have quasi-regulation, but it is light compared to most places. What we have is worse, than heavy regulation, and proper de-regulation, but I'll not drift the thread. Once again we have the government in our bedrooms and telling us what we can and can't do. Europe is a democracy with probably even greater freedoms.

Good for them to have a proper livable wage for new hires, but realize this, too. With Ab Initio, the pilots who begin to fly the heavy plastic buses for Luft, have been employees of the airline for a long time while they build exp., licenses and time. No way to compare anything really. What is this point supposed to prove?

My friend; please move out of the country - while people like me try to fix the last 10 years.

The most important thing to remember is we are not barbarians in this country, if someone without insurance is shot, injured acutely, or dying on the streets our Doctors are obligated to treat them. WHO PAYS FOR THIS? People with insurance!!!! Those of us with insurance are overcharged when we visit the hospitals so they can pay for the deadbeat who refuses to pay for insurance. That is one big part of health care reform - PUNISH those who refuse to get insurance.

 

[JerryLundegaard]

"...have you seen the WOMEN over there?"

Yeah, they're mean and fat, don't shave their armpits, and smell bad.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

8 replies, ok now 9, and still now word from instructordude on how pilots are over compensated!

 

[samballs]

"...have you seen the WOMEN over there?"

Yeah, they're mean and fat, don't shave their armpits, and smell bad.

So I don't have to read post above, are we talking about Wisconsin?

 

[JerryLundegaard]

So I don't have to read post above, are we talking about Wisconsin?

Minnesota would be closer, you know....Minneapolis...

 

[johnsonrod]

Don't forget another big benefit...

You guys are forgetting another huge benefit of flying in Europe... The FAs are actually hot chicks - attractive, thin and young. In other words, the polar opposite of what you find at Delta, UAL and AA these days. Thankfully SWA still has some attractive ladies. I flew on Lufthansa a few months back and the vast majority of the FAs on the A340-600 flight back to the US were hot blondes. We're talking Penthouse hot. That's another huge benefit you have to consider...

 

[PreContact]

You guys are forgetting another huge benefit of flying in Europe... The FAs are actually hot chicks - attractive, thin and young. In other words, the polar opposite of what you find at Delta, UAL and AA these days. Thankfully SWA still has some attractive ladies. I flew on Lufthansa a few months back and the vast majority of the FAs on the A340-600 flight back to the US were hot blondes. We're talking Penthouse hot. That's another huge benefit you have to consider...

Well there goes half your retirement! Freight is best!!!

 

[Full of LUV]

Max....

My friend; please move out of the country - while people like me try to fix the last 10 years.

The most important thing to remember is we are not barbarians in this country, if someone without insurance is shot, injured acutely, or dying on the streets our Doctors are obligated to treat them. WHO PAYS FOR THIS? People with insurance!!!! Those of us with insurance are overcharged when we visit the hospitals so they can pay for the deadbeat who refuses to pay for insurance. That is one big part of health care reform - PUNISH those who refuse to get insurance.

Max,
Just so you know and can stop using incorrect data, the infant mortality rates are a complete sham. Every country is allowed to define an "infant". In the US, if the fetus takes one breath, it is a "newborn" and despite spending months or weeks in NICU, if it dies, it is a stat. Since we have so much more technology than most of the world, we apply it to saving seemingly desperate cases that would not be counted in most nations.

Most nations say a "baby" has to make it to full gestation and live before it is a statistic, that way a baby that has many problems that they don't even have the tech to save aren't counted against them.

Some third world countries don't count an infant as a life birth until after more time, etc.....

read about it on the internet or from the CDC.

 

[michael707767]

Not bad...except cost of living is astronomical and you will pay 42% income tax on your 62,000 euros plus a "city" tax of 14%-17%.

Once Obama is done we will have a high cost of living, super high taxes, and we will still be stuck making less than the Lufthansa pilots.

 

[waveflyer]

while so many of us try to use scary words like socialist- the rest of the flying community is living a lot better than us.

 

[igneousy2]

This isn't about the EU airlines negotiating prowess...this is about the debasement of the US dollar.

It hasn't been that long since 1 Euro = 1 Dollar...I think around 2001-2002. In fact I think I remember a period where the Euro was exchanged at a fraction of a dollar at around .9 or so...maybe at the turn of the century?

 

[gt1900]

Once Obama is done we will have a high cost of living, super high taxes, and we will still be stuck making less than the Lufthansa pilots.

Not trying to make this political. But why not do some research on how the economy performs with a democrat in office vs a republican in office. Why your at it. Break it down to a democrat in office with the dems controlling congress, a dem president with GOP congress, a republican in office with a dem congress, and republican in office with a dem congress. Your type of feer mongering makes me sick. And the reason the GOP is using it because they know their economic policies have failed. Why is it that only 1 republican president ranks in the top 5 presidents who had the best economies while in office? And like I said, Im not trying to make this political, because I voted for Bush two times, but the facts are the facts! And the economy struggles under a Republican pres vs a Demo pres, with Reagan being the one exception.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Once Obama is done we will have a high cost of living, super high taxes, and we will still be stuck making less than the Lufthansa pilots.

No way Michael. This is a one term president ala jimmy carter, which by the way is looking like a visionary, next to the putz we call president.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Not trying to make this political. But why not do some research on how the economy performs with a democrat in office vs a republican in office. Why your at it. Break it down to a democrat in office with the dems controlling congress, a dem president with GOP congress, a republican in office with a dem congress, and republican in office with a dem congress. Your type of feer mongering makes me sick. And the reason the GOP is using it because they know their economic policies have failed. Why is it that only 1 republican president ranks in the top 5 presidents who had the best economies while in office? And like I said, Im not trying to make this political, because I voted for Bush two times, but the facts are the facts! And the economy struggles under a Republican pres vs a Demo pres, with Reagan being the one exception.

and Carter was a good president because...............he ate peanuts?

 

[IBNAV8R]

"...have you seen the WOMEN over there?"

Yeah, they're mean and fat, don't shave their armpits, and smell bad.

Yeah, but those aren't the ones they have for flight attendants.

 

[Max Powers]

Max,
Just so you know and can stop using incorrect data, the infant mortality rates are a complete sham. Every country is allowed to define an "infant". In the US, if the fetus takes one breath, it is a "newborn" and despite spending months or weeks in NICU, if it dies, it is a stat. Since we have so much more technology than most of the world, we apply it to saving seemingly desperate cases that would not be counted in most nations.

Most nations say a "baby" has to make it to full gestation and live before it is a statistic, that way a baby that has many problems that they don't even have the tech to save aren't counted against them.

Some third world countries don't count an infant as a life birth until after more time, etc.....

read about it on the internet or from the CDC.

Once again a pilot proves his stupidity....Infant mortality stats are kept the same way here as they are in Norway, Sweeden, England, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Germany etc etc. Have you ever heard of a Nosologist????? Nosologist keep these UNBIASED stats and report them yearly. USA is 173 at 5.6 death per a thousand with 215 singapore the best 2.09.

As you can see we are not number one....SHOCKER....who is above us and number one - countries who have heavy govt. involvement in health care.

Sorry to bring facts and scientific measures, into the debate, from people smarter than ourselves. How unfox news of me.

On a high note we do beat Guam by .04 dead babies per a thousand.

5,64 172
Guam5,60 173
United States5,55 174
Belarus5,36 175
Lithuania5,13 176
Cuba5,09 177
Taiwan5,04 178
European Union5,02 179
Cyprus4,98 180
Italy4,91 181
San Marino4,88 182
Wallis and Futuna4,75 183
Canada4,69 184
Greece4,62 185
Isle of Man4,58 186
Luxembourg4,55 187
Ireland4,54 188
Australia4,40 189
Jersey4,34 190
Denmark4,29 190
Portugal4,29 191
United Kingdom4,28 192
Gibraltar4,27 192
New Zealand4,27 193
Monaco4,19 193
Netherlands4,19 194
Israel4,05 195
Korea, South4,02 196
Guernsey3,93 197
Belgium3,87 198
Spain3,80 199
Andorra3,74 200
Switzerland3,68 201
Slovenia3,65 202
Germany3,55 203
Czech Republic3,43 204
Austria3,41 205
Malta3,27 206
Norway3,22 207
Finland3,15 208
Iceland3,08 209
Macau3,05 209
Anguilla3,05 210
France2,99 211
Liechtenstein2,95 212
Hong Kong2,73 213
Sweden2,58 213
Japan2,58 214
Bermuda2,35 215
Singapore2,09

 

[Max Powers]

Once again these stats are kept through Nosogolists, which get there info from Boring old Death Certificates, which are filled out by Doctors. So please don't come back with some Fox news conspiracy. But as you can see with our world best health care we are only 42 in the world. Pretty sad for insurance of 7300k per person compared to their 3000k or less.

1
Macau81,39 2
Andorra80,33 3
Singapore79,37 4
Australia79,25 5
Hong Kong79,16 6
Japan78,80 7
Canada78,69 8
Israel78,62 9
Sweden78,59 10
Iceland78,53 10
San Marino78,53 11
New Zealand78,43 12
Anguilla78,11 13
Switzerland78,03 14
Cayman Islands77,80 15
France77,79 16
Guernsey77,76 17
Gibraltar77,30 18
Norway77,29 19
Italy77,26 20
Jersey77,23 21
Malta77,21 22
Bermuda77,20 23
Greece77,11 24
Faroe Islands77,00 25
Netherlands76,80 26
Spain76,74 27
Saint Pierre and Miquelon76,69 28
Austria76,60 29
Liechtenstein76,59 30
United Kingdom76,52 31
Kuwait76,51 32
Jordan76,34 33
Monaco76,30 34
Germany76,26 35
Luxembourg76,07 36
Belgium76,06 37
British Virgin Islands76,03 38
Virgin Islands76,02 39
Denmark75,96 40
Cyprus75,91 41
Isle of Man75,86 42
United States75,65 43
Ireland75,60 44
European Union75,54 45
Saint Helena75,52 46
Finland75,48 47
Korea, South

cut and paste didn't work so well Macau is number one @ 81.39 years of life. We are 42 @ 75.65 years of life Ireland is 43 and so on.

 

[Whine Lover]

" cut and pace "

Is that where you fart, and then walk back and forth across the room, or what?


YKW

 

[Max Powers]

" cut and pace "

Is that where you fart, and then walk back and forth across the room, or what?


YKW

ahh yea that's it. You can pull your sheet off your head no one can see you behind the computer.

 

[thruthemurk]

Once Obama is done we will have a high cost of living, super high taxes, and we will still be stuck making less than the Lufthansa pilots.

No kidding!! I miss George W. Remember how good things were back in the good old fall of 08?
Yep, the good old days - hard to believe how now compares to then.

 

[Arkady]

My personal experience with the German health care system was quite an eye opener (esp. for someone that was always spoon fed since childhood the idea that the USA health care system was #1...proudly repeated, like it was the US Olympic team or something). I experienced very prompt & attentive service, virtually no waiting (perhaps all of 5 minutes - even without an appointment), no insurance? no problem, not a citizen? still no problem, no paperwork, no hassles, straight in to see a very thorough, friendly, professional doctor/nursing staff that were all incredibly attentive and took quite a bit of time to ask a lot of questions as well as making sure all of mine were answered in great detail. Just about the polar opposite of the typical long waiting, migraine inducing - pain in the arse paperwork, arguing with the insurance co. and precious little face time with the doctors run-around that I am (unfortunately) accustomed to at home in the States. And a few weeks later, when I was feeling better the German doctor invited us out for beers. Now that is customer service! All for approx. a 5 or 10 euro co-pay (for the health care - not the beers).

Don't get me wrong - I have met some great Doctors in the US and they do excel in some categories of medicine - but the overall experience in Germany, from my perspective as a patient, was much smoother and more relaxing and yet it also appeared to be more comprehensive and more patient oriented. Sort of like the difference in service you typically get when riding on Brand X US carrier vs. Singapore Airlines. One is to be endured & the other is a great experience. Anyway, if that is the kind of health care we are supposed to be so afraid of - well sign me up.

In addition, one of my family members lived for many years in both France and Lux and loved their respective health care systems/service there as well. And there is a lot to be said for the added peace of mind, in that I don't ever remember hearing about anyone over there ever being put in the terrible position of having to declare personal bankruptcy due to overwhelming health care bills - whereas there was this study regarding our system:


50 percent of U.S. bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that:

• 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. However, illness often leads to job loss and with it, the loss of health insurance.
• 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.
• Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
• Families with children were especially hard hit—about 700,000 children lived in families that declared bankruptcy in the aftermath of serious medical problems.
• The total number of people directly affected by medical bankruptcies is more than two million annually.

"'I think the message that we take away is, really, nobody is safe in our country. Short of (Microsoft Chairman) Bill Gates, if you're sick enough long enough, you're likely to be financially ruined,' cautioned study author Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. 'We're all one serious illness away from bankruptcy,' he added." - Karen Pallarito, "Health Medical Problems Cause Half of Personal Bankruptcies," Forbes.com, 02/02/05 -

So, if given the chance, would I trade seats with a Lufthansa pilot?...hellz yeah.

 

[Full of LUV]

Your blind by your hatred for the USA

Once again these stats are kept through Nosogolists, which get there info from Boring old Death Certificates, which are filled out by Doctors. So please don't come back with some Fox news conspiracy. But as you can see with our world best health care we are only 42 in the world. Pretty sad for insurance of 7300k per person compared to their 3000k or less.

1
Macau81,39 2
Andorra80,33 3
Singapore79,37 4
Australia79,25 5
Hong Kong79,16 6
Japan78,80 7
Canada78,69 8
Israel78,62 9
Sweden78,59 10
Iceland78,53 10
San Marino78,53 11
New Zealand78,43 12
Anguilla78,11 13
Switzerland78,03 14
Cayman Islands77,80 15
France77,79 16
Guernsey77,76 17
Gibraltar77,30 18
Norway77,29 19
Italy77,26 20
Jersey77,23 21
Malta77,21 22
Bermuda77,20 23
Greece77,11 24
Faroe Islands77,00 25
Netherlands76,80 26
Spain76,74 27
Saint Pierre and Miquelon76,69 28
Austria76,60 29
Liechtenstein76,59 30
United Kingdom76,52 31
Kuwait76,51 32
Jordan76,34 33
Monaco76,30 34
Germany76,26 35
Luxembourg76,07 36
Belgium76,06 37
British Virgin Islands76,03 38
Virgin Islands76,02 39
Denmark75,96 40
Cyprus75,91 41
Isle of Man75,86 42
United States75,65 43
Ireland75,60 44
European Union75,54 45
Saint Helena75,52 46
Finland75,48 47
Korea, South

cut and paste didn't work so well Macau is number one @ 81.39 years of life. We are 42 @ 75.65 years of life Ireland is 43 and so on.

Max,
Do some research, and you will see that those statistics are not from the same basis. It's our own CDC's admission, not fox news.
I was just in Macau last week (left a couple hundred unfortunately), you will not convince me that they do much to help a premature infant, much more fatalistic culture there and throughout asia.
I agree that our system that leaves you bankrupt if you get sick or that has so much profit in the middle has room to be fixed in the way we apply our technology, but as far as having access to the best care in the world with ever improving new treatments, you won't find many cancer patients traveling to Macau for treatment (unless your looking for a more wholistic approach).
But hey Max, at least you have 41 choices on where you will go get healed when (god forbid) you happen to contract an ailment.

 

[igneousy2]

I don't think there is any doubt that their are some very large problems with our health care system. The core problem is that we have a large percentage of the population that is essentially satisfied with the health care system. If you ask people about the health care system in general terms; does our health system suck? Then 80% respond that yes in fact it does suck. If you ask what you think about THEIR OWN health care system (i.e. their own doctor, etc.) most people respond that they are satisfied. Also, MOST people HAVE health insurance and MOST people DON'T have problems getting insurance because of pre-existing health conditions or the lack of a job.

When surveyed most people think health care reform is a GREAT idea as long as you don't raise their taxes, or lower their current or future benefits. How do you convince 80% of the population that they should sacrifice for the other 20%. An impossible situation.

 

[GogglesPisano]

How do you convince 80% of the population that they should sacrifice for the other 20%. An impossible situation.

Illustrates the profound difference in social policy between Americans and the rest of the developed world.