Skywest to Aspen

[Flyin2low]

Scroll down to see some real hills! Dash 7's at work!

http://members.aon.at/~slenz/dash7.html

Ransome Airlines sucks

 

[Ridgeback]

Most pilots, those on here, have never fully understood the problem with Aspen. Getting in is never the problem, heck I'd bet the space shuttle has a good shot at fly a loc approach in. The real problem is the balked landing. Most, even the CRJ700, do not have the climb performance, while flying at a slow enough airspeed to make the turn inside the bowl. I think it was the 168 rad...can't remeber. Anyway if the thread is continued please limit the discussion to one that would show you are educated in the topic at hand.

note; lets not forget it took a lot of money a few POI'S to get the 700 in there, I'm sure there was a reason the company had to buy a few washington types to "make it happen." One of the few times I'd actually book the ticket on a Avro or dash 8 when I went there

 

[sayrejm]

I got to sit in the back of a netjets sim session at FSI doing a V1 cut escape return at ASE.... pretty hairy. those guys are sharp.

 

[BoilerUP]

I got to sit in the back of a netjets sim session at FSI doing a V1 cut escape return at ASE.... pretty hairy. those guys are sharp.

At recurrent last month, we did the ASE RW33 Special Departure Procedure following a V1 cut @ 2% below the max weight APG said we could carry...you've got to be paying attention and on-course but fly the numbers and you won't end up in the rocks.

As much as folks (myself included) don't think the CR7 or the E170 is an adequate airplane for that airport...it's perfectly safe if flown by the numbers.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I had the opportunity to fly several KASE landing/departure situations in the sim this past summer. In one of those scenarios I made three attempts with three red screens of death. I developed a whole new respect, beyond what I already had, for our ASE pilots.

Edit: I believe it was windshear that killed me three times, not the V1 cut.

 

[BoilerUP]

I had the opportunity to fly this same example in the sim this past summer. Three attempts, three red screens of death. I developed a whole new respect, beyond what I already had, for our ASE pilots.

Hmmm....does SKW use this procedure (which is emergency/OEI)?

TAKEOFF WEIGHTS FOR RWY 33DP REQUIRE *
* USE OF MODIFIED PUBLISHED -LINDZ- AND *
* -SARDD- DEPARTURE PROCEDURES. *
* *
* MAKE AN IMMEDIATE 15 DEGREE BANKED CLIMBING *
* -RIGHT- TURN TO A HEADING OF 340 DEGREES. *
* *
* *
* AT 10.3 DME SOUTH OF DBL VOR (DBL R-165/D10.3) *
* TURN -LEFT- TO A HEADING OF 270 DEGREES. *
* *
* *
* INTERCEPT THE IPKN LDA NORTHWEST COURSE *
* (OUTBOUND ON BACKCOURSE - IPKN 300/D15.0) *
* DIRECT LINDZ INTXN (DBL VOR 244/13.0). *
* *
* *
* CLIMB IN HOLDING PATTERN AT LINDZ INTXN. *
* (WEST, LEFT TURNS, 064 INBOUND).*

A CJ2+ performs quite differently than a CRJ-700, but it really wasn't any big deal...much to my surprise, as I thought it'd be MUCH closer.

 

[cale42]

balked landing balked landing balked landing. That is the whole issue.

The V1 cut is not that hard.... you are pointed straight down the valley fly a couple headings and your good. The missed isn't that hard. Your three miles from the end of the runway, it's just a climbing turn out. Landing isn't that hard.. just do it.

If you go past the MAP though and have a problem it's bad news. It is a tight turn in the valley with the GPWS chewing you out the entire time. Creeps me out enough to do it in the sim.. but at least with the Q it IS doable. Not sure what the procedure for the jet is, but I doubt it leaves you with warm fuzzies.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Hmmm....does SKW use this procedure (which is emergency/OEI)?

A CJ2+ performs quite differently than a CRJ-700, but it really wasn't any big deal...much to my surprise, as I thought it'd be MUCH closer.

See my edited post...

 

[BoilerUP]

balked landing balked landing balked landing. That is the whole issue.

The V1 cut is not that hard.... you are pointed straight down the valley fly a couple headings and your good. The missed isn't that hard. Your three miles from the end of the runway, it's just a climbing turn out. Landing isn't that hard.. just do it.

If you go past the MAP though and have a problem it's bad news.

Okay, question. I'll qualify it with the fact that I've never personally flown into/out of Aspen.

If you have an issue between the MAP and the runway...why not just fly the OEI SDP? If you're all-engines then climb performance shouldn't be an issue; if you're OEI then you've already got a little altitude, energy, and distance from the rocks in your favor vs. a V1 cut.

Sure it takes time and gas to go back out for an approach if you do this...but isn't that preferable to trying to turn around in that valley?

 

[cale42]

ASE is one way in one way out except for occasional circles. You depart RWY 33.. and I think that is the OEI SDP you are talking about. You are aimed out of the box canyon off of 33. Landing you are straight into 15 the majority of time. At this point you are flying directly into the canyon.. so you have to turn around to get out. Even 2 engine you don't have the climb performance to climb straight out, so the balked and the V1 cut are faced different directions. That was kind of a convoluted explanation but hopefully made sense.

Walter.. the windshear training there sucks.. I wasn't in any way calling out your flying skills when I said the V1 cut was easy..

cale