Pentagon to triple the number of drones

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That requires a discussion of the ROE that we can't go into here. But the answer is a resounding no. We go to extreme measures to ensure civilian safety before kinetic activity. Stop believing everything you read in the press. Regardless of what you believe, they have their own agenda.

So.... the press is wrong? Does this include non US news?

All of the reporting, or just when the press reports innocent civilians killed by US weaponry?

 

[SIG600]

You should thank God you live in a country that condones your free speech. Talking to you is more painful than slamming my head against a wall. It's war, people die. Not all of them deserve it. Why don't you go to a VFW and punch a WWII vet for carpet bombing Japan or Germany? You obviously know more than the rest of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You should thank God you live in a country that condones your free speech.

What if I am an atheist? Who should I thank? You?

Talking to you is more painful than slamming my head against a wall.

Does that mean the truth hurts? That it is uncomfortable?

It's war, people die. Not all of them deserve it.

you just told me not to believe the press... that it wasn't true that innocents die, but now, they do and they don't deserve it?



Well not really war, in the legally declared sense... but physically and in the real sense.... sure...

Why don't you go to a VFW and punch a WWII vet for carpet bombing Japan or Germany? You obviously know more than the rest of us.

I don't think those guys fooled themselves in what they were doing. They recognized the ugly truth in it. Perhaps that is why the Greatest Generation didn't talk much about it... they came back home and did the best they could in getting back to civilian life. Those guys have class.

 

[Kuma]

So.... the press is wrong? Does this include non US news?

All of the reporting, or just when the press reports innocent civilians killed by US weaponry?

In general, the press is always wrong about everything. Whenever they are reporting about something that I know a lot about (say aviation) they make remarks and describe details that I shake my head and say to myself..."they do not know what they are talking about". Based on 40+ years of thinking that, I am pretty sure that they convey about 40% truth and 60% hyperbole.

With that being said, during times of war civilians are often hurt, maimed and killed. That is sad. They may or may not be totally "innocent" but the fact remains that they get hurt or killed during war. In the crusades, thousands died from blunt force and the cutting of a blade. In world war I, thousands died from chemical attack, during WWII millions died from the firebombing of cities, V-missiles into metropolises, and attempted genocide of an entire religious sect. Recently, Ethiopia and Eritrea killed millions of each other over tribal concerns.

While I agree that death and pain for the innocent is wrong, drones change the scale drastically. Twelve killed in Pakistan? Twelve? Among them were multiple known terrorists and agents?

More drones mean more intel. More intel means more situational awareness, more SA means less "innocents" get hurt. Some will always get hurt.

This is the price of trying to rid the world of terrorist bastards who would kill thousands to make their point heard.

 

[Hobit]

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

 

[Kharma Police]

So.... the press is wrong? Does this include non US news?

All of the reporting, or just when the press reports innocent civilians killed by US weaponry?

If only ALPA pilots following the ALPA Code of Ethics were flying those drones, then no civilians would have been killed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In general, the press is always wrong about everything. Whenever they are reporting about something that I know a lot about (say aviation) they make remarks and describe details that I shake my head and say to myself..."they do not know what they are talking about". Based on 40+ years of thinking that, I am pretty sure that they convey about 40% truth and 60% hyperbole.

With that being said, during times of war civilians are often hurt, maimed and killed. That is sad. They may or may not be totally "innocent" but the fact remains that they get hurt or killed during war. In the crusades, thousands died from blunt force and the cutting of a blade. In world war I, thousands died from chemical attack, during WWII millions died from the firebombing of cities, V-missiles into metropolises, and attempted genocide of an entire religious sect. Recently, Ethiopia and Eritrea killed millions of each other over tribal concerns.

While I agree that death and pain for the innocent is wrong, drones change the scale drastically. Twelve killed in Pakistan? Twelve? Among them were multiple known terrorists and agents?

More drones mean more intel. More intel means more situational awareness, more SA means less "innocents" get hurt. Some will always get hurt.

This is the price of trying to rid the world of terrorist bastards who would kill thousands to make their point heard.

Also, the drones add a new factor to warfare... it is clean... the drone team isn't on site weilding the same weapon.. it is defintely an unfair fight. (war isn't fair... just an observation...).

Also, drone operations is based upon intel. Intel isn't always accurate. Meaning, if you are on the battlefield facing your enemy you know who your enemy is... he is right there with a similar weapon trying to kill you.


So if civilian deaths in war are unfortunate, but acceptable, is it also acceptable if "they" kill my family and claim all is fair in war?

Finally, when does it all end? Or is this the way it has always been and always will be? Our grandchildren are simply fodder for the war machine?

 

[zippy]

Also, drone operations is based upon intel. Intel isn't always accurate. Meaning, if you are on the battlefield facing your enemy you know who your enemy is... he is right there with a similar weapon trying to kill you.


So if civilian deaths in war are unfortunate, but acceptable, is it also acceptable if "they" kill my family and claim all is fair in war?

Finally, when does it all end? Or is this the way it has always been and always will be? Our grandchildren are simply fodder for the war machine?

You appear to have some background in aviation... was it acceptable when aircraft were hijacked and flown into the World Trade center? Would it have been acceptable if the shoe bomber, or the Nigerian were sucessful in blowing up the aircraft they were on in flight? Is it acceptable for things like that to continue to happen?

In the perfect world, there would be no conflict, no hunger or poverty but the world is far from perfect. Hopefully one day it will be, but it is going to be a very long time.

War is not fair, and War is not perfect. As previously stated, use of kinetic weapons in the current conflict minimized the number of casualties on the recieving end (even if you believe that those killed surrounding the target are "innocent")... you fear about the youth being fodder for the war machine... imagine the increase of casualties on all sides if the United States replaced drone attacks with what you support... face to face combat between forces on the ground.

It is very easy to blindly criticize something you fear and don't understand. You have the right to publicly cry out against the operations of the US military... for that right, you are welcome.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You appear to have some background in aviation... was it acceptable when aircraft were hijacked and flown into the World Trade center? Would it have been acceptable if the shoe bomber, or the Nigerian were sucessful in blowing up the aircraft they were on in flight? Is it acceptable for things like that to continue to happen?

No these acts are not acceptable... are the acts committed by the US against innocent civilians acceptable?

In the perfect world, there would be no conflict, no hunger or poverty but the world is far from perfect. Hopefully one day it will be, but it is going to be a very long time.

I like the way you think, but it is flawed in that you put the responsibility of a better world onto the shoulders of future generations. Perhaps guys landing on Normandy or flying B-17 missions over Germany assured themselves that what they were doing was worth it so future generations won't have to go to war... yet here we are...
killing each other.

War is not fair, and War is not perfect. As previously stated, use of kinetic weapons in the current conflict minimized the number of casualties on the recieving end (even if you believe that those killed surrounding the target are "innocent")... you fear about the youth being fodder for the war machine... imagine the increase of casualties on all sides if the United States replaced drone attacks with what you support... face to face combat between forces on the ground.

Actually I don't support war at all. I already gave at the office and my kids aren't available to a society that believes our children are born to die in war.

It is very easy to blindly criticize something you fear and don't understand. You have the right to publicly cry out against the operations of the US military... for that right, you are welcome.

What don't I understand...???? at the start of this post I agreed that 9/11 and shoe bomber attempts are unacceptable... so now the question becomes are our attacks acceptable....?? Why is what they did unacceptable and what we do acceptable? One could argue that they started it with 9/11, however, I am willing to say thay "they" will say it we started it before 9/11. That is the problem with war... and when does it end?

Isn't real democracy the ability to question ourselves and our actions? What seems concerning... is not questioning. If we desensitize ourselves or ignore or even refuse to accept the truth, is that really moral? If we want the benefit of victory, as a free society should not also accept the responsibility?

 

[chignutsak]

We are blowing up militants. Great. While doing so, innocents will inevitably be part of the tally, no matter what elaborate precautions are taken. Fog of war and all of that. Let's say we take out some bad guy commander, but in doing so, take out a dozen or so women and children along with the bad guy. They have made a value judgment and essentially said their lives are worthless. Bureaucrats safe at HQ and idiots posting on internet boards might say that is an acceptable trade-off. But you have (further) enraged hundreds, if not thousands, of locals. They will be even more resolute and determined against occupiers. Instead of getting one step closer to your goal by taking an important bad guy out, you have now escalated the conflict, and their hatreds of us and everything we stand for, just as it may seem to us.

Remember, most of these folks are illiterate. They don't give one rat's azz about our Constitution, our government, 9/11, or have access to Faux News, MSDNC, or moronic blogs. They are instead concerned about day-to-day survival, which means basic subsistence and staying on the good side of the local tribal chieftain. Whether or not said chieftain is viewed by the US as a good or bad guy is completely meaningless to them; if it takes hemp, poppies, or pomegranates to keep chief happy, so be it. When does it end? It doesn't. If war is your business, then I suppose you are a happy camper. But tell me something, are you ready to send your sons and daughters to war in order to prop up contractor's stock price's? You damn well better, their blood is needed.

I, for one, am glad that an end game is supposedly near. We, as a nation, cannot afford an open-ended commitment to this area. There is NO upside to this, unless you are a UAV contractor.

 

[JungleJett]

Folks..seriously. Rez has, is, and always will be antimilitary...bordering on anti-American, not because he challenges policy, which is a good thing, but accuses the US of knowingly targeting civilians. He views those that serve with a great amount of disdain and his post prove that. If that UAV saved the lives of 1000 US troops or 100 civilians from an insurgent attack, but killed one civilian, we would all be monsters. He simply cannot see beyond his own hate...it eats at his weak character.

Rez, stick to what you know.......let the men deal with the rest.

 

[SIG600]

Rez... go smoke a joint, sling a gear handle, and let the warriors secure your freedom. Obviously you don't have the capability to stomach the reality that the entire world isn't pink unicorns, hugs, and happiness.

 

[zippy]

No these acts are not acceptable... are the acts committed by the US against innocent civilians acceptable?

If you seriously think that the US is intentionally targeting innocent civilians with UAV attacks then you need to do some more homework and check your sources...

Since you think terrorist flying planes into buildings is unacceptable, and UAV attacks (and other actions) disrupt terrorists in that part of the world and keep them off balance enough to prevent them from planning and executing another event like 9-11 how do you deem that? If the UAV actions and other efforts cease (much like you advocate) and Terrorist become successful in blowing up planes crossing the Atlantic and flying them into buildings again, will that make you happy?

Actually, many of us in the Armed Forces are doing our part to try to bear that burden of responsibility to make the world better for future generations... what have you done to make this country and the world better for future generations?

Actually I don't support war at all. I already gave at the office and my kids aren't available to a society that believes our children are born to die in war.

Let me tell you a little secret... people serving in the military tend not to support war either... because they are the ones that have to fight them. What they do is "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..." The military also does other things besides wage war- Humanitarian relief operations throughout the world (most recently Haiti).

Once again... you seem quick to pass the burden and responsibility of making the world a better place for everyone (already giving at the office), but show no support for them bearing that burden... If think you can do better, then by all means join up and pull your weight.

I hope your children have the ability to make form their own opinions of our society, government military and the world and I hope that your fear mongering hasn't completely distorted their vision.

What don't I understand...???? at the start of this post I agreed that 9/11 and shoe bomber attempts are unacceptable... so now the question becomes are our attacks acceptable....?? Why is what they did unacceptable and what we do acceptable? One could argue that they started it with 9/11, however, I am willing to say thay "they" will say it we started it before 9/11. That is the problem with war... and when does it end?

In this case they are correct... violence in that part of the world has been going on for a very long time. UBL and AQ made their debut in the late 80s and early 90s (further back if you count Egyptian Islamic Jihad prior to the merger of the two groups)... but American's only really started feeling the effects of the group while supporting the UN mission to deliver humanitarian aide in Somolia (Another example of the military trying to help instead of waging war... funny how that works).

Isn't real democracy the ability to question ourselves and our actions? What seems concerning... is not questioning. If we desensitize ourselves or ignore or even refuse to accept the truth, is that really moral? If we want the benefit of victory, as a free society should not also accept the responsibility?

Democracy is the ability to quiestion ourselves and our actions... If I remember correctly you began this thread with a snide remark and not a question...

I truely hope you can rest comfortably knowing that you live under the freedom of a democracy... if you didn't- chances are that you and your family would have already been snatched up and "disappeared" in the middle of the night. Instead you will go to sleep tonight, and wakeup tommorrow free easy decision and to carry out your anti-government, anti-military (and whatever else you believe in) agenda- thanks to the sacrifices and hard decisions that the those who swore an oath (the government) to protect your way of life make every day...

I'm not sure if this has ever crossed your mind- but next time you see a member of the military (in the airport or wherever) say thank you for making your life so easy... you might be surprised with how they react.

 

[FlyinGuy]

The problem with these libs like res is that they do not know how to preserve freedom. Maybe we should be taking the WWII approach to things. 2 bombs 2 wars over!!!

 

[SIG600]

Zippy, fantastic post, even for a P-3 guy!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you seriously think that the US is intentionally targeting innocent civilians with UAV attacks then you need to do some more homework and check your sources...

I didn't say the US was intentionally targeting. However it does happen.... accepting the benefit of an action also requires accepting the responsibility.

Since you think terrorist flying planes into buildings is unacceptable, and UAV attacks (and other actions) disrupt terrorists in that part of the world and keep them off balance enough to prevent them from planning and executing another event like 9-11 how do you deem that? If the UAV actions and other efforts cease (much like you advocate) and Terrorist become successful in blowing up planes crossing the Atlantic and flying them into buildings again, will that make you happy?

Yet killing civilians doesn't create more terrorist? Kill a 10 year olds parents and 20 years later he is ready to attack. Unreasonable?

You cannot assume the the UAV attacks are a total net gain. Kill one or two legitimate military targets and create as many or more future "terrorist"

Actually, many of us in the Armed Forces are doing our part to try to bear that burden of responsibility to make the world better for future generations... what have you done to make this country and the world better for future generations?

So no one can question? Sorry that is not a free society. Do you really want to be a citizen in a country where military actions are not accountable and questioned? Is that democracy?

Let me tell you a little secret... people serving in the military tend not to support war either... because they are the ones that have to fight them. What they do is "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..." The military also does other things besides wage war- Humanitarian relief operations throughout the world (most recently Haiti).

Humanitarian efforts are not in question here. Because humanitarian efforts are done in one area does that mean we look the other way when something doesn't look right?

Once again... you seem quick to pass the burden and responsibility of making the world a better place for everyone (already giving at the office), but show no support for them bearing that burden... If think you can do better, then by all means join up and pull your weight.

Respectfully one could question the invasion of a sovereign nation (Iraq) and why we are in Afghanistan. This is not a attack on the personnel serving honorably, but the intent of the civilian leaders in DC.

I hope your children have the ability to make form their own opinions of our society, government military and the world and I hope that your fear mongering hasn't completely distorted their vision.

Cheap shot. I actually reject war. Yet you are saying "we don't like, but we do it". How about we don't do it. Sure it takes a different mindset... and you are probably thinking that is too idealistic, however, if make war, accept war, insist war is inevitable, and leave the responsibility and burden to end war with future generations... then there will always be war.

It appears that you are willing to send your children and grandchildren (and mine possible) to war. Sorry, unacceptable.

In this case they are correct... violence in that part of the world has been going on for a very long time. UBL and AQ made their debut in the late 80s and early 90s (further back if you count Egyptian Islamic Jihad prior to the merger of the two groups)... but American's only really started feeling the effects of the group while supporting the UN mission to deliver humanitarian aide in Somolia (Another example of the military trying to help instead of waging war... funny how that works).

I disagree... it is far more complex than that.... especially if you consider cause and effect.

Democracy is the ability to quiestion ourselves and our actions... If I remember correctly you began this thread with a snide remark and not a question...

negative. What was the purpose of the thread? What is so great or positive about tripling the number of drones? Cause and effect. I could argue that this shows a lack of understanding, awareness and insensitivity to the unintentional civilian killings.

I truely hope you can rest comfortably knowing that you live under the freedom of a democracy... if you didn't- chances are that you and your family would have already been snatched up and "disappeared" in the middle of the night. Instead you will go to sleep tonight, and wakeup tommorrow free easy decision and to carry out your anti-government, anti-military (and whatever else you believe in) agenda- thanks to the sacrifices and hard decisions that the those who swore an oath (the government) to protect your way of life make every day...

What is wrong with you people? You pride yourselves on defending freedom and a free society then when someone says something you don't like you revolt. You are acting like a totalitarian regime. Actually, I think differently in that the US foreign policy and current occupations will cause (and effect) more problems in the decades to come with terrorist attacks.

I'm not sure if this has ever crossed your mind- but next time you see a member of the military (in the airport or wherever) say thank you for making your life so easy... you might be surprised with how they react.

Why do you guys need aggrandizement? If you feel what you are doing is just and righteous why do you care what others think?

Again, I think the individuals serve with honor. It is the policy of the govt that I fund that I have an issue with...... seriously guys... its called democracy and a free society.

 

[SIG600]

Why don't you just thank those that have done their part to secure your future, as well as your kids, and tried to make it a better place in your stead. If you want to question the manner in which it's done, write your congressman. Otherwise, you're just another assh0le with an opinion that's to weak willed to do anything other than whine on an internet forum. No one is sending your kids, or your grandkids to war. However if your kids or grandkids decide to VOLUNTEER to serve their country, and are thus sent into harms way.....

Agree, disagree, whatever. In all reality no one here gives a $hit. You're another uneducated prick with an opinion. You'll abuse the freedoms provided to you, then sh!t on those that provide it. Personally, I think you're another hack that can't see past their own self interest to the greater good.

Those that have been down range have told you you're wrong, you can't accept that, and continue to run your man pleaser thus solidifying your ignorance more and more. We get it, you think we can solve the worlds problems with a coke and a smile. You're ignorant, uneducated, and opinionated. Dangerous combination.

 

[JungleJett]

shack!!!!!

why don't you just thank those that have done their part to secure your future, as well as your kids, and tried to make it a better place in your stead. If you want to question the manner in which it's done, write your congressman. Otherwise, you're just another assh0le with an opinion that's to weak willed to do anything other than whine on an internet forum. No one is sending your kids, or your grandkids to war. However if your kids or grandkids decide to volunteer to serve their country, and are thus sent into harms way.....

Agree, disagree, whatever. In all reality no one here gives a $hit. You're another uneducated prick with an opinion. You'll abuse the freedoms provided to you, then sh!t on those that provide it. Personally, i think you're another hack that can't see past their own self interest to the greater good.

Those that have been down range have told you you're wrong, you can't accept that, and continue to run your man pleaser thus solidifying your ignorance more and more. We get it, you think we can solve the worlds problems with a coke and a smile. You're ignorant, uneducated, and opinionated. Dangerous combination.

 

[JungleJett]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stewart Mill

 

[JungleJett]

I agree with Rez...Preds have done nothing but kill people. Its not like they are actually producing any results.....this article is filled with dirty lies about the successes of UAV operations. We should get rid of them or convert them to drop little sweet kisses on the world. Because if we stop attacking the Taliban and AQ, then the world break out into song, we will have endless rainbows, and we can ride unicorns to work at our candy and toy making jobs!! Rez can expand his product line of pink clothing and use the profits to provide PlayStations and Teletubby DVD's to the kids of the world!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35291011/ns/us_news-washington_post