Airtran Opening B737 MKE Pilot Domicile.

[Britpilot]

For those of us on "the other side" , can someone explain the differences between a full base and a "virtual" base?

Thanks

pfp

Virtual base=At the will of the company, no infrastructure ect
Full base= Everything a full base implies including all the provisions contained within our CBA.

 

[arjayeffo]

Is this where I cue the "what happened to your flying staying in DEN" remark?

Gup

Since you used quotation marks and referred to someone else's 'remark', can I ask who you're actually quoting? Or is it simpy a question from the mighty Gup himself, rather weakly disguised as someone else's bullet?

Of course you want us to keep all of our flying in Denver. You work for Southwest.

 

[humveedriver]

Kind of surprising since MKE only has about 40 departures a day and BWI/MCO are both around 60-70. They wouldn't have pulled the trigger on a base unless it was going to save them money and we are going to be there for the long run.

I doubt there will be any involuntary 737 displacements to MKE. They were going to be 3 or 4 more months of vacancies to increase staffing for summer of 2010. Instead of doing ATL 737 CA and FO vacancies of the next couple of months, now the vacancies will be in MKE. I would imagine it could get real expensive (training costs) if they started doing involuntary movements.

The way I read the letter, MCO and BWI flying is north/south and has the ability to pass through ATL. Which negated the need for BWI/MCO crew base.

MKE can support the east/west flying from BWI and MKE. So even though there are less departures, the route structure is what forced the necessity of a crew base in MKE. Having said that, I think MCO will be next, as we expand our services south of FL, but thats a wag. I don't think it will be senior or junior, more of a mix. We have enough folks from that area who will bid it for quality of life. I am glad they are opening the base, and did it without diluting our contract.

 

[runwayjockey]

I've never been to MKE but I doubt it's worth going to the mat over.



Give 'er he!! Airtran!

Gup

Gup

8 million people used MKE last year. This year is set to break all records for passengers using MKE. Gary has stated "there is no clear market leader in MKE".

Not worth going to the mat over?

 

[starchkr]

Since you used quotation marks and referred to someone else's 'remark', can I ask who you're actually quoting? Or is it simpy a question from the mighty Gup himself, rather weakly disguised as someone else's bullet?

Of course you want us to keep all of our flying in Denver. You work for Southwest.

Well, he actually took that from quotes on this board...it came from people within the company (F9) when we were going through this whole RAH purchase.

Gup, i wonder the same thing myself...

 

[GuppyWN]

Since you used quotation marks and referred to someone else's 'remark', can I ask who you're actually quoting? Or is it simpy a question from the mighty Gup himself, rather weakly disguised as someone else's bullet?

Of course you want us to keep all of our flying in Denver. You work for Southwest.

It was just such a heated discussion that I couldn't pass up the opportunity to dredge it back up.

The whole thing actually made me kind of sad. I'd have much rather had you (I'm guessing) F9 guys on our seniority list than go to RAH. You can cast stones and point fingers all you want bro but I am convinced that your career would have been more flexible, prosperous and with better quality of life than you're going to end up with in the long run.

Sorry for bringing it back up.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

OK, my bad. 12 days of 8 hr turns for 96 hrs, and 5 days of airport ready reserve (of which they could only get 4 hrs of flying out of me before I hit the monthly max) for a total credit value of 116 hrs and 14 days off.

Seriously, it is hard to mess up day trips. I am not on the 737, but aren't the SJU and PHX day trip lines pretty nice?

It depends.

The memo also said that, initially, trips would be 1- and 2-days. The 1-day trips concern me as they might be mostly comprised of Stand-ups / CDO's / High Speeds. I don't do those. Fatiguing for me = safety problem. I don't switch back and forth from one side of the clock to the other just for a few days very well. Once I'm ON a night schedule? Sure. No problem. But not switching back and forth every 3-4 days.

Until we see how they're going to build the lines, bid at your own risk...

For those of us on "the other side" , can someone explain the differences between a full base and a "virtual" base?

Thanks

pfp

A "full" base has specific language in the contract for it. Most specifically, language that governs how it has to be staffed, that it must have crew rooms, sleep rooms, check-in computers, a domicile chief pilot, that bidding has to be open for it for all pilots on the seniority list (depending on your carrier, it sometimes even opens slots for other pilots to change aircraft), and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, it has penalties to be paid by the company if they close it, i.e. if you're displaced out of domicile. This makes it expensive to just open a "seasonal domicile" then close it later, thereby making it more appealing for a pilot who might actually want to LIVE in that base and move his/her family for it.

A "virtual" base is what AirTran Flight Attendants have. It basically allows the company to create lines of flying for those flight attendants in another base (there is currently a F/A "virtual" base in MCO, but no pilot base). However, they can flex the lines up and down (build more or fewer lines or increase / decrease block/credit hours from month to month) or not have any virtual base lines AT ALL from one month to the next. It's dynamic and helps the company to a certain extent when they want to add crews for seasonal ramp-ups in certain high-density cities for us (BWI, MCO), but it has no protections for someone who actually wants to BID there and live.

There's a lot of arguments for and against a VB here, which we've gone over a lot on our private board, but the primary concern is protection for someone who wants to move, with an important secondary concern of what it would do to the lines of flying for ATL if, suddenly, we allowed a VB in MCO and they shifted a lot of flying there. It very well might turn ATL into a primary CDO/Standup and Day Trip base, killing commutability, or MCO might be that way.

Without some serious protection language, i.e. the ability of the union to kill the VB at any time if the lines of flying degrade for a substantial number of pilots or some other adverse consequence is realized, a VB is a bad, bad idea here.

Personally, I won't vote for a T.A. that includes any language for Pref Bid and/or VB that doesn't have the ability for the MEC to kill it AT ANY TIME. Not just during a trial period. If management has taught this pilot group anything, it's that they can make things very appealing to get something they want, then turn it back to their advantage and hurt our QOL as soon as it's convenient for them.

I want my company to be profitable, but not at the expense of the employee's Quality of Life. If they don't like those limitations, they can keep the current systems in place.

 

[dicko]

OK, my bad. 12 days of 8 hr turns for 96 hrs, and 5 days of airport ready reserve (of which they could only get 4 hrs of flying out of me before I hit the monthly max) for a total credit value of 116 hrs and 14 days off.

Seriously, it is hard to mess up day trips. I am not on the 737, but aren't the SJU and PHX day trip lines pretty nice?

Please pass the pipe

How does this sound ; " west coast turns " .... means at night. All night turns to the west coast with no hotel costs for the company. You get to feel like you work for FEDEX or UPS without the money etc.

Predicting AirtTrans' next move for pilots is easy. Picture the worst case, cheapest, trailer trash option .... Voila. Imagine you are in an episode of Cops and you'll have it right.

 

[arjayeffo]

It was just such a heated discussion that I couldn't pass up the opportunity to dredge it back up.

The whole thing actually made me kind of sad. I'd have much rather had you (I'm guessing) F9 guys on our seniority list than go to RAH. You can cast stones and point fingers all you want bro but I am convinced that your career would have been more flexible, prosperous and with better quality of life than you're going to end up with in the long run.

Sorry for bringing it back up.

Gup

I guess we will have to chalk it up to a difference of opinion. I am an FO here at F9 so if your purchase had succeeded and our Airbus went away as proposed, my family would have had a very somber Christmas with me on furlough now. As it stands though, my boy was able to open his 'G.I. Joe with the Kung Fu grip' under the light of a tree that had ornaments on it that said 'New Domicile' and 'Aircraft Acquisitions' as opposed to 'Unemployment Benefits Application'.

Everyone keeps telling me (us) how we screwed up by not biting on that trotline that was the Southwest offer. But I would argue (despite the multitude of predictions to the contrary) that my life is actually better now than it was 3 months ago. We are recalling our furloughees as opposed to my becoming one, we are taking more aircraft as opposed to watching them go away in a hurry, and while it is not the industry leading pay that you SWA guys have pioneered, I am still making the same paycheck that my wife and kids depended on this summer.

So many years ago, a carrier named Southwest Airlines changed the model of the Airline industry, and I would guess (although I was not on flightinfo at the time ;-) ) that there were a few 'legacy' guys out there who referred to your pilots in the same type of terms that so many choose to throw at the Republic, and even Frontier pilots now. Being that I really had no say in the mattter of the 'auction', I have only one choice now: make the best of the cards I have been dealt and hope that Republic = 'Southwest - The sequel'. (That was a compliment) I have to move forward with the notion that I am already in on the ground level of something that will be big, and that (just like Southwest) we won't be the ones to set the industry standards until we have achieved a level of success that warrants it many years down the road.

There are two problems - Number one is people like starchkr who think that opening a domicile in MKE is somehow a bad thing. Maybe it would make some people feel all safe and warm to huddle down in Denver with our eyes wide shut, but I am not one of them. There are quite a few people around the crew room here who think that the way out of all this mess is to mope around and talk about 'what should have happened' or 'what we wish could be'. IT IS WHAT IT IS. To sit around and talk about 'wondering where our flying went' is just so much crying. The only way out is through - grow a sack and adapt.

Problem Number two (and the reason I reacted so harshly to your statement) is all of the people on here unnecessarily vilifying the Republic pilots, and publicly rooting for the entire airline's demise. They are nothing but convenient targets, and the most intelleigent people on this board know that as much as any of us dislike it, we, them and all of us are just pawns in a big management game. Anybody who gets on this board and expresses great concern for a Midwest pilot put out of a job, and then in the same breath outwardly roots for another (Republic) pilots unemployment as justice, is a gigantic hypocrite and is writing a check to the bitch goddess of Karma that will most assuredly bounce somewhere along in their career. Hypocrites will never be spared as long as I can type - they are the lowest form of life in existence.

Call me idealistic, but I won't root against another pilot unless it comes down to a clear cut example of him against me. I don't see that it has come to that, so I wish you the best in whatever city you fly into or out of. At the end of the day we are all just the same guy, in a different tie, trying to find a happy hour. Happy frigging new year.

 

[scarlet]

Yeah you are only going to do day lines to west coast and back=NOT..will be FL, BWI trips too. Oh yeah West coast turns (like the lovely PHX red eye turn),,,you will love those.

No Trip trading....And 2 year lock in MKE and company will most likely open MCO and BWI later down the road. Any training you lose vacation=joy..

Just saying..

 

[Adiabatic Pilot]

Learguy...do you fly for AirTran?

 

[scarlet]

We shall see the lines in April. You think only flying you going to do is west coast turn=dreaming. You will go FL trips and BWI trips with 15-16 days off 85-88 hours.

No Trades, nothing in open time, FLY YOUR Line base.

 

[Lear70]

Learguy...do you fly for AirTran?

I did... I'm one of the contract hostages awaiting arbitration for 2 1/2 years. We FINALLY got it scheduled for this coming February, and I'm anticipating getting my job back, as I've won every other legal battle so far to date, and the company dropped the fraud allegations by reinstating my Worker's Compensation about 6 months ago, which were the heart of the termination case.

That said, as a member awaiting arbitration, I still have voting rights, keep track of what's going on, and participate in what's happening on a daily basis.

 

[maxblast72]

How does this sound ; " west coast turns " .... means at night. All night turns to the west coast with no hotel costs for the company. You get to feel like you work for FEDEX or UPS without the money etc.

Look at FTWeb sometime. The only redeye flying we do to MKE right now is LAS-MKE. LAX, SFO, PHX, and SEA is all performed without redeyes this time of year. When we beef up west coast flying during summer vacation season (Memorial Day to Labor Day), you will probably see 3 or 4 redeyes into MKE everyday. Looking at the whole year, I would bet redeyes to MKE are less than 20% of the west coast turns.

There will probably be some variety in MKE. The senior lines should be quite nice. There should be some redeye turn lines (more in summer and less for the rest of the year). The Florida turns should be daytime but not as productive as the turns are 5-6 hrs instead of 7-8 hrs for west coast turns. There might be a few standup lines too.

Hardly sounds like Fedex or UPS to me. Too bad Fedex or UPS aren't hiring. Then you could tell all the guys you fly with that you have your application in and can't wait to leave this place.

 

[f9cougar]

Gup get over it!

 

[likeitis]

I guess we will have to chalk it up to a difference of opinion. I am an FO here at F9 so if your purchase had succeeded and our Airbus went away as proposed, my family would have had a very somber Christmas with me on furlough now. As it stands though, my boy was able to open his 'G.I. Joe with the Kung Fu grip' under the light of a tree that had ornaments on it that said 'New Domicile' and 'Aircraft Acquisitions' as opposed to 'Unemployment Benefits Application'.

Everyone keeps telling me (us) how we screwed up by not biting on that trotline that was the Southwest offer. But I would argue (despite the multitude of predictions to the contrary) that my life is actually better now than it was 3 months ago. We are recalling our furloughees as opposed to my becoming one, we are taking more aircraft as opposed to watching them go away in a hurry, and while it is not the industry leading pay that you SWA guys have pioneered, I am still making the same paycheck that my wife and kids depended on this summer.

So many years ago, a carrier named Southwest Airlines changed the model of the Airline industry, and I would guess (although I was not on flightinfo at the time ;-) ) that there were a few 'legacy' guys out there who referred to your pilots in the same type of terms that so many choose to throw at the Republic, and even Frontier pilots now. Being that I really had no say in the mattter of the 'auction', I have only one choice now: make the best of the cards I have been dealt and hope that Republic = 'Southwest - The sequel'. (That was a compliment) I have to move forward with the notion that I am already in on the ground level of something that will be big, and that (just like Southwest) we won't be the ones to set the industry standards until we have achieved a level of success that warrants it many years down the road.

There are two problems - Number one is people like starchkr who think that opening a domicile in MKE is somehow a bad thing. Maybe it would make some people feel all safe and warm to huddle down in Denver with our eyes wide shut, but I am not one of them. There are quite a few people around the crew room here who think that the way out of all this mess is to mope around and talk about 'what should have happened' or 'what we wish could be'. IT IS WHAT IT IS. To sit around and talk about 'wondering where our flying went' is just so much crying. The only way out is through - grow a sack and adapt.

Problem Number two (and the reason I reacted so harshly to your statement) is all of the people on here unnecessarily vilifying the Republic pilots, and publicly rooting for the entire airline's demise. They are nothing but convenient targets, and the most intelleigent people on this board know that as much as any of us dislike it, we, them and all of us are just pawns in a big management game. Anybody who gets on this board and expresses great concern for a Midwest pilot put out of a job, and then in the same breath outwardly roots for another (Republic) pilots unemployment as justice, is a gigantic hypocrite and is writing a check to the bitch goddess of Karma that will most assuredly bounce somewhere along in their career. Hypocrites will never be spared as long as I can type - they are the lowest form of life in existence.

Call me idealistic, but I won't root against another pilot unless it comes down to a clear cut example of him against me. I don't see that it has come to that, so I wish you the best in whatever city you fly into or out of. At the end of the day we are all just the same guy, in a different tie, trying to find a happy hour. Happy frigging new year.

I don't think anyone is rooting for republic pilot unemployment. Many see the evil that republic is and see that it benefits the CAREER that slime ball companies like republic, mesa, gulfstream, etc. go away and hopefully be replaced with better/more ethical companies. I have nothing against the pilots for those companies.

 

[starchkr]

I guess we will have to chalk it up to a difference of opinion. I am an FO here at F9 so if your purchase had succeeded and our Airbus went away as proposed, my family would have had a very somber Christmas with me on furlough now. As it stands though, my boy was able to open his 'G.I. Joe with the Kung Fu grip' under the light of a tree that had ornaments on it that said 'New Domicile' and 'Aircraft Acquisitions' as opposed to 'Unemployment Benefits Application'.

Everyone keeps telling me (us) how we screwed up by not biting on that trotline that was the Southwest offer. But I would argue (despite the multitude of predictions to the contrary) that my life is actually better now than it was 3 months ago. We are recalling our furloughees as opposed to my becoming one, we are taking more aircraft as opposed to watching them go away in a hurry, and while it is not the industry leading pay that you SWA guys have pioneered, I am still making the same paycheck that my wife and kids depended on this summer.

So many years ago, a carrier named Southwest Airlines changed the model of the Airline industry, and I would guess (although I was not on flightinfo at the time ;-) ) that there were a few 'legacy' guys out there who referred to your pilots in the same type of terms that so many choose to throw at the Republic, and even Frontier pilots now. Being that I really had no say in the mattter of the 'auction', I have only one choice now: make the best of the cards I have been dealt and hope that Republic = 'Southwest - The sequel'. (That was a compliment) I have to move forward with the notion that I am already in on the ground level of something that will be big, and that (just like Southwest) we won't be the ones to set the industry standards until we have achieved a level of success that warrants it many years down the road.

There are two problems - Number one is people like starchkr who think that opening a domicile in MKE is somehow a bad thing. Maybe it would make some people feel all safe and warm to huddle down in Denver with our eyes wide shut, but I am not one of them. There are quite a few people around the crew room here who think that the way out of all this mess is to mope around and talk about 'what should have happened' or 'what we wish could be'. IT IS WHAT IT IS. To sit around and talk about 'wondering where our flying went' is just so much crying. The only way out is through - grow a sack and adapt.

Problem Number two (and the reason I reacted so harshly to your statement) is all of the people on here unnecessarily vilifying the Republic pilots, and publicly rooting for the entire airline's demise. They are nothing but convenient targets, and the most intelleigent people on this board know that as much as any of us dislike it, we, them and all of us are just pawns in a big management game. Anybody who gets on this board and expresses great concern for a Midwest pilot put out of a job, and then in the same breath outwardly roots for another (Republic) pilots unemployment as justice, is a gigantic hypocrite and is writing a check to the bitch goddess of Karma that will most assuredly bounce somewhere along in their career. Hypocrites will never be spared as long as I can type - they are the lowest form of life in existence.

Call me idealistic, but I won't root against another pilot unless it comes down to a clear cut example of him against me. I don't see that it has come to that, so I wish you the best in whatever city you fly into or out of. At the end of the day we are all just the same guy, in a different tie, trying to find a happy hour. Happy frigging new year.

Whoa, hold up there bro! When did i say it was a bad thing? I never said it was a bad thing, i have actually shown my willingness to go to MKE for the company. Maybe not on here, but i have already been looking for a house to buy for crashpad use for any F9 employee who wishes to use it. I've invited all the people i fly with to join me as well. Airtran guys can come as well, i'll keep a cold one for ya in the fridge every day...oh by the way that will be added to your monthly rent.

I believe you are taking my answer to Gup as a negative way of talking about MKE...re-read it, and notice no connotations were implied. Sure i said i agree with his comment, and i still do and always will. During the contract negotiations for us to approve the RAH buyout (which we all voted on, remember?) it said the jobs would stay in DEN. I understand that future bases were needed, we couldn't stay in DEN alone forever. Just kind of ironic that the reverend's moves have come as they have.

Now i agree with the rest of your post as well, i too am happy we did not end up on the SWA list. I too would have been out of a job from day 1. I also believe we need to make the best of what we were dealt, and i hope to do that by following my contract and doing as is expected of me per that contract, nothing less and nothing more.

I too love the idiots on here wishing me/us ill will for our future. Gotta love how they lose their jobs and then want us to lose ours as well. Oh well, you can't please everyone. You know i wonder what it would be like to go into the doctors office or the hospital and listen to the employee's there talk like we do...would I stay? Would you stay? What an industry huh, a bunch of complaining little kids wishing that their daddy could beat up your daddy.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Arjayeffo-
Republic operating large aircraft will substantially change the "market rates" that pilots will be negotiating at major airlines. It could open a new strata of pay: the regional (low pay with subsidized PFT), the national (Airbus/737/E190 aircraft at a small margin above regional) and International (757/767, A330 etc - pay higher than a national, but only until a regional decides to expand into this market, then the scale slides down again). I would expect that airlines will again try to split off certain stratas (a la TED, Song) to capitalize on the "new normal" pay rates that will be pioneered by Republic. That's why there is so little pushback from the majors that Republic flys for. One hand washes the other in this scheme.

 

[Jetjockey]

Or Republic fails miserably, and they go away with their abysmal pay rates.

 

[f9cougar]

Jetjock.peeing his pants ....HAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA