Questions for ATC controllers

[paulsalem]

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/192912-1.html

The most common of phrases in the en route environment are the ones dealing with altitudes. Pilots somehow twist themselves into knots with these phrases and I'm not sure how it happens. There are four simple words I want you to remember:

1. Level
2. Leaving
3. Climbing
4. Descending

If you'll use your callsign and those four words, you're halfway home on using correct phraseology.
You can read about this is the AIM but it's kind-of like that communications exercise in class. You know, the one where you try to give the guy (who's playing the role of the real dumb robot/computer) precise instructions on how to strike a match. In other words, it's frustrating to put it all together.
I've already covered the first phrase but I'll do it again so you can string all this together:

"Atlanta Center, Cessna One Two Three Four Five, level six thousand." ​

Who you're calling (Atlanta Center), who you are (Cessna N12345) and what you are doing (level 6,000).
But what happens if you aren't level?

Atlanta Center, Cessna One Two Three Four Five, leaving four thousand six hundred, climbing to six thousand. ​

Gasp! I used the dreaded "to" word! Well, yes I did. So does the AIM:

AIM 5-3-1 (a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
​

Now before somebody swoons, let's think about this thing. There is no such altitude as "two six thousand." That would be Flight Level two six zero.

"Atlanta Center, Air Force One, leaving Flight Level one eight five, climbing to Flight Level two six zero."​

If you want to avoid something, avoid these phrases that really aren't in the book: "for", "out of", "at", "up to", "down to" and a dozen other ways people have found to confuse the issue.

"We're out of eight for ten." ​

"... with you at six." ​

"Airliner six forty six for fourteen." (Heard that one the other day.) ​

"Atlanta Center, Airliner Six Forty, leaving six thousand, climbing to one four thousand." ​

See the difference? There's another difference you should note: If you'll always say "climbing to" or "descending to" -- when you start flying in the higher altitudes -- you'll give the controller a chance to catch the error when you mistake a heading assignment for an altitude change. You see, the habits you're learning now will stick with you throughout your flying career. You may not ever become an airline pilot but you just might get rich and buy yourself one of those new VLJs one day.

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, fly heading two one zero."​

"Two one zero eleven veejay"​

It takes about 10 to 15 seconds for a turn to become noticeable on a Center controller's radarscope. The controller isn't going to sit there and watch your target until it turns; he'll go do something else -- work some other airplanes -- and then come back to see if the turn has taken effect. It's a really nasty surprise to find out that, instead of turning, the pilot has descended. Trust me. I've seen it happen. Using correct phraseology can prevent it.

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, fly heading two one zero." ​

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, leaving flight level two five zero, descending flight level two one zero."​

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, negative, maintain flight level two five zero. Turn left heading two one zero.​

 

[Booker]

Good stuff. Don is the reason I joined the forum whose name I dare not speak here. There's much better ATC scoop over there.

 

[callowayhd]

For those that don't know, Calloway's profile said he had 1500 hrs and flew acouple of light twins before he changed his profile today. Nice try!

So Mesaba didn't hire you I understand? Did you ever get hired by Pinnacle? I know that's you where you wanted to go.

start trainging at compass soon btw

 

[slapstick]

Q: Do controllers get as irritated as I do when that certain JetBlue pilot checks in, "Washington, JetBlue 123, flight level 370, GREAAAT DAAAY"?

Probably not, since they don't have to listen to this guy all the way up or down the coast.

 

[2ndGenPSA]

Thanks for the post paulsalem.
I may have been one of those "airliners" on your frequency at SHINE. I do remember a few years back being in a stacked hold at SHINE. The controller was getting pretty irritated that no one was reading back the "vacating" part of the altitude change. But by the end of the event, all the airliners on his watch were getting those calls spot on!

It was on one hand quite amusing, on the other, a good educational experience. I always report vacating an altitude because of that day.

I do think that both pilots and controllers need to put themselves in the other's shoes more often. I fly with guys/gals who seem irritated with the controller; they mumble, they don't read back the call-sign (only the flight number), they don't check in on purpose, etc. And controllers sometimes bark at clarification questions, get impatient with missed calls, etc. I try to fly the way (I think) the controller is expecting me to fly. Their job isn't easy, and we as pilots should try to make it as easy as possible... it's in our best interests!
On the other hand, controllers need to put themselves in our shoes as well. When we touch down, the flight isn't over; it's hard to listen to complex taxi instructions with the reverse roaring and the high-speed nearing. We sometimes forget crossing restrictions. We sometimes miss a fix while programming the route. Etc.
I guess my point is this: let's watch each other's backs. It seems like the new mood of the ATC/FAA is to violate everything. We all make mistakes. And this job is becoming more difficult for pilots and controllers. So let's try to take care of each other.
Phew, that was a wast of time! haha

 

[paulsalem]

Just to clairify, that post is a quote from a Don Brown, cloumn. He is a former Atlanta Center controler and Natca safety rep.

I did a poor job of quoting him in my response. The link goes to the column I copied the text from.

 

[hyper]

Wrong or not - required or not - stupid or not - matters not.

CYA would dictate you make the calls regardless.

Just 1 example: You get PD assignment and 5 minutes later start down but don't report cuz you're too cool for school. The controller has a deal because you got too close to traffic below you. Don't you think when they pull the tapes that the golden egg will be the fact that you didn't report leaving your altitude?

Classic nothing to lose and all to gain scenarios.

Mach 80 makes good points and questions but the reality check for any "should I?" scenario is to always picture yourself in a courtroom (at best-not dead) trying to justify why the feds should not violate you. "I did not make the call because they have radar and should have seen me" won't get you very far.

I'm never one of those "checking in", "with you", "out of" folks, but I try and remember to make every call that may be required, necessary or not, just to save my a$$ if nothing else.

 

[CA1900]

Q: Do controllers get as irritated as I do when that certain JetBlue pilot checks in, "Washington, JetBlue 123, flight level 370, GREAAAT DAAAY"?

<shudder>

My blood pressure went up 10 points just reading that. I don't think he knows how massive irritating that is.

 

[zonker234]

Think how irritating it must be for the guy or gal in the other seat on a 4 day having to listen to this idiot...swear to goodness I would give him every leg just so he would NOT work the radios!!

 

[Flyin2low]

VFR 1900's flying around the NE was pretty irritating too..

 

[ron burgundy]

Q: Do controllers get as irritated as I do when that certain JetBlue pilot checks in, "Washington, JetBlue 123, flight level 370, GREAAAT DAAAY"?

Probably not, since they don't have to listen to this guy all the way up or down the coast.

Followed him one day all the way to tpa. departed bos.

 

[cheater1239]

Just 1 example: You get PD assignment and 5 minutes later start down but don't report cuz you're too cool for school. The controller has a deal because you got too close to traffic below you. Don't you think when they pull the tapes that the golden egg will be the fact that you didn't report leaving your altitude?

when you accepted the PD clearance, you became the owner of that block of airspace vertically and if defined, laterally. descend to the bottom of that block now or later, it is still your airspace. no call required by the AIM because when you do descend you are not entering a "newly assigned altitude". it was your when you accepted the initial PD clearance.

 

[hyper]

Thanks cheater. While I agree with you, I'd rather make the call to cma especially if significant time has lapsed since the clearance 5, :10, :20?). If something should occur such as what I mentioned in the scenario, like most FAA regs/non-regs (open for litigious interpretation), any slick lawyer could cast doubt on what should and should not be. Takes me 5 seconds to make the call and it's more of a courteous reminder for the controller if nothing else.

If it saves him one day (and me) great. If not, well, at least I'm never "checkin' in, with ya, can we get direct, how's the rides, greaaaaaaat daaaaaay"....

 

[PurpleInMEM]

From the AIM Preface:

Flight Information Publication Policy

d. This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities required by other publications.

If it's not required by CFR or some such nonsense, it's not required.

 

[SELCAL checks]

3. Do you find it a nuisance when you have given an aircraft a descent at pilot's discretion, he acknowleges it, but then call you back a few minutes later to tell he's leaving the original altitude? Seems like an unnecessary transmission. ( For pilots -- I know what the very outdated AIM says).

I usually don't make these calls, unless there is other traffic in the area below me. Twice in the last year a controller has amended our clearance after making this call. Too many new controllers these days making tons of mistakes.

4. Do you like getting a call from an aircraft when he enters his assigned holding? Seems redundant since you have radar. (For pilots--again, I know what's in the outdated AIM).

I make the call because of a conversation with a center controller one day. He said that often times in holding, non-radar procedures are used. So once I state I'm in the hold, he can employ non-radar separation. That's when it's important to state that you're vacating one altitude for another, because once you've vacated, he's going to step the next guy down, etc...

Most of those other useless, extraneous radio calls...... I don't make.