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Why We Need the F-22

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Cobra17

¿quién es tu papi?
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Posts
758
Why We Need the F-22
It’s been more than half a century since American soldiers were killed by hostile aircraft. Let's keep it that way.
By MERRILL A. MCPEAK

The United States relies on the Air Force, and the Air Force has never been the decisive factor in the history of war.

—Saddam Hussein,
before Desert Storm

High-end conventional war is characterized by the clash of industrial forces. It’s armored, mechanized and increasingly air-power centric. Few are equipped by training or temperament to understand the phenomenon, especially as it concerns air warfare, a relatively recent aspect of the human experience. (In this regard, Saddam Hussein had plenty of company.) But the bottom line is that in high-end conventional war, neither our Army nor Navy can be defeated unless someone first defeats our Air Force.

For high-end conventional war we’ve built an Air Force that, for now, is virtually unbeatable. Anyone looking at our air-power capabilities knows there is little hope they can concentrate conventional forces for decisive engagement of our Army or Navy. We will track them and pick them to pieces. When Saddam Hussein tried us on for size in the early-1990s, the ground war was a four-day walkover that followed the initial 39 days of aerial combat.

So today, no one in his right mind wants to fight us in a conventional war. Many are saying this another way: that we have no “peer competitor,” that there is no threat of high-end conventional war. I wouldn’t bet the ranch on that, but, if it is so, it is a desirable condition and one that didn’t happen by accident.

We have forced anyone with a bone to pick with us to find an alternative to high-end, conventional war. We’ve had to invent a vocabulary for this low end: “asymmetrical” conflict, it being another poorly understood activity. But it seems clear that in this sort of war our existence is not threatened, that we can regulate the resource input. It can be expensive in men and material, but we cannot be defeated militarily.

When the enemy succeeds, it is because we do not defeat him and then weary of the fight. This is not a good outcome, but it is better—and much cheaper for us in lives and treasure—than losing a high-end, conventional conflict.

The future air combat capabilities we should build are based on the F-22, a stealthy, fast, maneuverable fighter that is unmatched by any known or projected combat aircraft. But the F-22’s production run may soon come to an end at just 187 planes, well short of establishing the fleet size we need. After all, it’s expensive, and getting more so as the number contemplated has been repeatedly reduced. In an argument they seem to think makes sense, critics say the aircraft has no worthy opponent—as if we want to create forces that do have peer competitors.

It’s been more than half a century since any American soldier or Marine has been killed, or even wounded, by hostile aircraft, a period roughly coincident with the existence of the Air Force as a separate service. Even during the Korean War—the Air Force’s first engagement wearing new, blue uniforms—enemy air attack was primitive and rare. The main air battle was fought along the Yalu River, just as in Vietnam it was fought over Hanoi, and in Desert Storm, over Baghdad. Our guys on the ground had hard work to do, but when they looked up, they saw only friendly skies.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why we should wish to change this.

Gen. McPeak (ret.), Air Force chief of staff from 1990 to 1994, was a national co-chair of Obama for President.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204908604574332870284931470.html
 
You would think that with all the legitimate and expensive claims on the government pocketbook — including two wars, an economic crisis and desperately needed health care reform — Congress would be extra judicious about how it spends the taxpayers’ money. But no, at least not when it comes to the House Armed Services Committee and lucrative defense contracts.

The panel has proved again how the insatiable drive to keep fancy weapons systems alive can trump all good sense. With Representative Rob Bishop of Utah and other Republicans leading the charge, and with the support of six Democrats, the committee this week narrowly voted to keep producing the Air Force’s F-22 stealth fighter jet.

We adamantly opposed Defense Secretary Robert Gates’s proposal to buy four more F-22s in next year’s budget. But at least he wanted to cap the fleet at 187 planes. The House committee has voted to approve a $369 million down payment on 12 more. If all of those are bought, the total price tag would be about $2.8 billion.

The Pentagon budget must be more closely attuned to military and economic reality than the misdirected and undisciplined spending of the last eight years. Mr. Gates has made a compelling case for ending programs that significantly exceed their budgets or use limited tax dollars to buy “more capability than the nation needs.”

No weapons system fits that criteria better than the F-22. It is a cold war relic, designed for defense against the Soviet Union. It has never flown in combat, much less in the wars this country is actually fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Air Force’s new high-performance F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which begins production in 2012, uses stealth technology to elude enemy radar like the F-22, and should be sufficient.

Lockheed Martin and its partners parceled out work on the plane widely to ensure maximum political protection. And we deeply regret that jobs will be lost by phasing out the F-22. But the United States cannot keep paying for redundant and dubious systems. There are too many other compelling demands on the country’s battered budget — some of which will certainly create new jobs. It is up to House Democratic leaders to make this case to their members and ensure that the committee’s decision on the F-22 is overturned.
 
Maybe McPeak should have thought about this before he supported Obama for President. The only real cuts you will see out of this administration will be in Defense. Just like Jimmy Carter. Makes a heck of a lot of sense. Budget cuts in Defense when we are at war.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to the Obama administration this isn't a war, its an Overseas Contingency Operation.......
 
What else would you expect from McPeak?, maybe a new uniform? That kinda looked like an airline pilot?
 
I think Tony isn't ready to accept that his job is being replaced by a computer, minus the ego.

He makes his own argument against the F-22...we have enjoyed air superiority for over half a century....without it!
 
Hi!

We need the F-22 to effectively maintain air superiority when we are fighting Britain???, France???, Switzerland???, India, or for sure Israel, since they have the best air-to-air Air Force.

Or, maybe we're going to invade Russia??? It shouldn't cost too much, and we have lots of spare cash laying around.

cliff
NBO
 
Maybe McPeak should have thought about this before he supported Obama for President. The only real cuts you will see out of this administration will be in Defense. Just like Jimmy Carter. Makes a heck of a lot of sense. Budget cuts in Defense when we are at war.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to the Obama administration this isn't a war, its an Overseas Contingency Operation.......

Typical right wing hyperbole.

Please show where there is a cut in the defense budget.

You won't be able to do so because the defense budget goes up not down.

Don't let the facts get in your way.
 
But the bottom line is that in high-end conventional war, neither our Army nor Navy can be defeated unless someone first defeats our Air Force.

Granted our Army brothers get significant support from the USAF, but I think the navy can cover their own air support requirements fairly well. Hilter will be wearing ice skates before a Carrier Group Commander calls Big Blue for help protecting his boats.
 
Maybe McPeak should have thought about this before he supported Obama for President. The only real cuts you will see out of this administration will be in Defense. Just like Jimmy Carter. Makes a heck of a lot of sense. Budget cuts in Defense when we are at war.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to the Obama administration this isn't a war, its an Overseas Contingency Operation.......

Do you ever look at FACTS? Bush I cut the military more than Clinton did. Dick Cheney, as SecDef, eliminated a ton of defense department jobs and saw the largest troop reduction this country has ever seen.

The F22 is a victim of our success. The aircraft of the future have pilots flying them from air bases far away from where they operate.
 
End of a War

Do you ever look at FACTS? Bush I cut the military more than Clinton did. Dick Cheney, as SecDef, eliminated a ton of defense department jobs and saw the largest troop reduction this country has ever seen.

The F22 is a victim of our success. The aircraft of the future have pilots flying them from air bases far away from where they operate.
It was the end of the "Cold War", there was a peace dividend to be reaped. Truman, Ike, and Nixon oversaw much bigger draw downs following WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.
 
Maybe McPeak should have thought about this before he supported Obama for President. The only real cuts you will see out of this administration will be in Defense. Just like Jimmy Carter. Makes a heck of a lot of sense. Budget cuts in Defense when we are at war.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to the Obama administration this isn't a war, its an Overseas Contingency Operation.......

They are correct. This is not a war.
 
It was the end of the "Cold War", there was a peace dividend to be reaped. Truman, Ike, and Nixon oversaw much bigger draw downs following WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

Of course, but the statement still holds merit. Cheney slashed DoD budgets following the Gulf War. The US has a history of rapid demobilization following major conflicts, I understand that. Clinton's peace dividend in the mid 90's was starting to actually show peace in the middle east and northern ireland, then extremist jews shot Rabin and the respective extremists won yet again.

The backers of the F-22 are stuck in a "Cold War" mentality regarding its existence beyond that which was already allocated, for that matter the B-2 also (in terms of maintaining its existence). Lockheed and Boeing are two of the biggest corporate welfare recipients of the federal government and its about time they stop taking us for a bath. Perhaps our leadership can listen to those who see us "maintaining the peace over the world" and can see the direct parallels to what the Romans did. Ours will fail similarly to what happened to Rome. The economics of such are simple now showing themselves.

And technically this isn't a war. Only congress can declare that. We haven't had that since the early 40's. The executive branch seems to have forgotten this since Truman strong armed them. Ron Paul was the only candidate to mention this during the campaigns.
 
Hi!

We need the F-22 to effectively maintain air superiority when we are fighting Britain???, France???, Switzerland???, India, or for sure Israel, since they have the best air-to-air Air Force.

Or, maybe we're going to invade Russia??? It shouldn't cost too much, and we have lots of spare cash laying around.

cliff
NBO
I was watching cable news the other day. Some high ranking military guy was pleading the case that Russia is selling Iran an anti-aircraft missile capable of shooting down anything in the US fleet except the F22.

Not necessarily my opinion, just passing it on "straight from the horse's mouth."
 
OK fellas, Lets not forget that we still have 187 of these planes!!! Thats a whole lotta planes.

And who are we fightin right now?? The Taliban, Al Qaida??? They dont even have an airforce! And they never will.

Were gonna be just fine with our current fleet of aircraft!!!
 
Hi!

The AF is now rapidly buying new UAVs, and small, light-weight ground attack and transport aircraft. They are spending LOTS of money, just changing what they spend it on!!!

cliff
NBO
 
Next year the USAF will buy more unmanned A/C than manned A/C. Handwriting is on the wall for fighter and attack pilots. In the future you will man a console work an 8 hour shift blowing up things 10,000 miles away. In fact they are short of pilots for UAV right now and are thinking of calling up reserve pilots to fly the UAV's out of Creech
 
Will USAF UAV "pilots" be enlisted or officer? Or will there be an officer overseeing multiple UAV enlisted operators...
 
Officers of course, they have not an E offically near the controls of something that flies in the USAF since 1945
 
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ivmFlotMyTRA3KyuWWaN9joQjHfAD9A4R7U00

Obama criticizes a Cold War approach to defense
By LIZ SIDOTI (AP) – 3 hours ago
PHOENIX — President Barack Obama chastised the defense industry and a freespending Congress on Monday for wasting tax dollars "with doctrine and weapons better suited to fight the Soviets on the plains of Europe than insurgents in the rugged terrain of Afghanistan."
"Twenty years after the Cold War ended, this is simply not acceptable. It's irresponsible. Our troops and our taxpayers deserve better," he told a national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. "If Congress sends me a defense bill loaded with a bunch of pork, I will veto it."
Turning to the two foreign wars engaging the United States, Obama spoke of fierce fighting against Taliban and other insurgents leading up to Thursday's national elections in Afghanistan. He said U.S. troops are working to secure polling places so the elections can go forward and Afghans can choose their own future.
Attaining that peaceful future "will not be quick, nor easy," Obama said.
He said the new U.S. strategy recognizes that al-Qaida has moved its bases into remote areas of Pakistan and that military power alone will not win that war. At the same time, confronting insurgents in Afghanistan "is fundamental to the defense of our people."
As to Iraq, Obama reiterated his commitment to remove all combat brigades by the end of next August and to remove remaining troops from the country by the end of 2011. U.S. troops withdrew from cities and other urban areas in June.
Obama, in his third appearance before the VFW but his first as president, got hearty applause and standing ovations as he spoke at the Phoenix Convention Center to several thousand veterans, though only about two-thirds of the seats were filled.
That may have been partly because he started his speech nearly an hour before it was scheduled. Aides say he was anxious to get back to Washington after a four-day trip out West that was part family vacation and part business, including the VFW speech and town hall meetings in Montana and Colorado to push his health care agenda.
Obama told the veterans that overhaul would not change how they get their medical services — and that nobody in Washington is talking about taking away or trimming their benefits.
Instead, he said he's instructed senior aides to work with the secretary of veterans affairs to come up with better ways to serve veterans.
Obama said he wants each of the 57 regional VA offices "to come up with the best ways of doing business, harnessing the best information technologies, breaking through the bureaucracy."
He said the government would then pay to put the best ideas into action "all with a simple mission — cut these backlogs, slash those wait times and deliver your benefits sooner."
Even at a time when Obama needs as much congressional support as he can summon for his health care priorities, he spared no party from his harsh critique of business-as-usual by some in the military establishment, some defense contractors and some lawmakers who write defense budgets.
He assailed "indefensible no-bid contracts that cost taxpayers billions and make contractors rich" and lashed out at "the special interests and their exotic projects that are years behind schedule and billions over budget."
He took on "the entrenched lobbyists pushing weapons that even our military says it doesn't want" and blistered lawmakers in Washington whose impulse he said was "to protect jobs back home building things we don't need (with) a cost that we can't afford."
He said such waste was unacceptable as the country fights two wars while mired in a deep recession.
"It's inexcusable. It's an affront to the American people and to our troops. And it's time for it to stop," Obama said.
As a candidate and as president, Obama has held up the weapons-buying process as the perfect example of what's wrong with Washington and why the public doesn't trust its leaders. He essentially picked a political fight with a large part of the congressional-military-industrial alliance.
He sounded much like his campaign rival of a year ago, Arizona Sen. John McCain. And, while in Arizona, Obama praised McCain for seeking to rein in costs and reform the weapons-buying process.
In seeking to overhaul the weapons-buying process, Obama hopes to make good on a campaign promise to change the way Washington does business. But it certainly won't be easy to do; lawmakers protecting jobs at home are certain to put up enormous fights over Obama's efforts to stop production on weapons like the F-22 fighter jet.
Despite objections and veto threats from the White House, a $636 billion Pentagon spending bill was approved by a 400-30 vote in the House late last month. It contains money for a much-criticized new presidential helicopter fleet, cargo jets that the Pentagon says aren't needed and an alternative engine for the next-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter that military leaders say is a waste of money.
The Senate will deal with the spending measure in September.
The president laid out a vision of a nimble, well-armed and multilingual fighting force of the future, not one that was built to fight land battles against the Soviets in Europe.
"Because in the 21st century, military strength will be measured not only by the weapons our troops carry, but by the languages they speak and the cultures they understand," he said.
He praised McCain for joining him and Defense Secretary Robert Gates in opposing unneeded defense spending.
Shortly after Obama won the White House, McCain had pointedly suggested there was no need for the Marine Corps to bring on newer helicopters to ferry the president at a cost of billions of dollars.
On the subject of the helicopters, Obama told the veterans: "Now, maybe you've heard about this. Among its other capabilities, it would let me cook a meal while under nuclear attack. Now, let me tell you something. If the United States of America is under nuclear attack, the last thing on my mind will be whipping up a snack."
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
Do any of you know what youre talking about? (That is a rhetorical question)


Based off of these posts, I would say no.

The title of this thread should be: "ATTENTION, ATTENTION, all left wingers report to a non-scheduled military bashing thread...ATTENTION..."

Using the logic of all of the posters here, we would have never developed ANY of the technology that our warfighters are currently using.

Think about it: Why did we develop the F4? The F100 and F105 did everything necessary. Why did we develop the F15? The F4 did everything necessary. And so on...
 
Bad example

Think about it: Why did we develop the F4? The F100 and F105 did everything necessary. Why did we develop the F15? The F4 did everything necessary. And so on...

Those airplanes did not bust the budget. They were designed for a real world cold war adversary. The F-22 was braking the back of the USAF budget; the USAF has to shed missions in order to fly the Rolls Royce Fighter. BTW at 187 it is still a very capable weapon system.
 

Those airplanes did not bust the budget. They were designed for a real world cold war adversary. The F-22 was braking the back of the USAF budget; the USAF has to shed missions in order to fly the Rolls Royce Fighter. BTW at 187 it is still a very capable weapon system.

How 'bout some more $1B each bombers
 
Based off of these posts, I would say no.

The title of this thread should be: "ATTENTION, ATTENTION, all left wingers report to a non-scheduled military bashing thread...ATTENTION..."

Using the logic of all of the posters here, we would have never developed ANY of the technology that our warfighters are currently using.

Think about it: Why did we develop the F4? The F100 and F105 did everything necessary. Why did we develop the F15? The F4 did everything necessary. And so on...

None of what you said is true. Go back and look at the development of the aircraft you mentioned. For example the F-15 was never develpoed as an F-4 replacement, it was designed to meet the threat of the MiG-25. The F-4 continued in service for another 15 years after the first F-15 squadron became operational.
 
Those airplanes did not bust the budget. They were designed for a real world cold war adversary. The F-22 was braking the back of the USAF budget; the USAF has to shed missions in order to fly the Rolls Royce Fighter. BTW at 187 it is still a very capable weapon system.

Braking the back of the ARH and the MRAP too. Anyone in the Air Force request MRAP's for their security forces?
 

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