Frontier guys: it's slipping away from you

[firstthird]

Morris was stapled. they were 2 years old. SWA was 20 some. some didn't have types or 1000 pic. etc.

there are plenty of arguments in this thread about how 'fair and equitable' can be determined and staple might fit the bill. but I hope we don't find out. arbitrators determine fair and equitable and according to our CEO the deal is off if FAPA & SWAPA can't decide on an SLI before that.

 

[General Lee]

F9 guys, take the Republic deal so you don't have to go to LBB!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cornelius]

GuppyWn, tell us your opinion what should happen to F9 furloughs.

Most of the furloughs had an interview very similar to LUV and had the same experience minus the type rating.

 

[njcapt]

I edited it so it makes sense. Midwest guys watched her sing too. They're doing great.

I would take the bird in the hand, but then again, I know what you guys would be missing out on.

If 94 more of your fellow pilots took the bird in the hand that was offered in your recent TA you would be bending over for a SLI wearing a sandpaper rubber. Fortunately, enough of your pilots had the vision and judgment not to sell out for marginally improved rates and chump change retro.

FEDERAL LAW they can not staple anymore=do some homework!

Jeez, you need to STFU. If you spent only ten minutes reading other posts about this you would know that Kelley has said the deal was dead unless they had a labor agreement in hand. Try lurking more.

 

[puddlejumper101]

I bet SWA doesn't furlough a single pilot from F9 if we go ahead with this. I know they are returning 11 airframes but...I bet Boeing has those 11 737's ready to replace those 11 Airbuses on the SWA side...and guess who flies them. F9 pilots who would come over first. Mark my words...F9 guys will be taken care of if an agreement can be reached. We all worked very hard to get away from Republic, ASA, Mesa, ETC...nothing against the guys there, but we all know those are not the career airlines we all want to work for. SWA takes care of their people, and F9 pilots will be taken care of.

I know F9 people would rather keep everything as is, but that won't happen. Given the options, I would make a deal with SWA any way I could over Republic. The Republic deal seems good on the surface (keep F9 going), but ask Midwest guys how that's turning out for them. SWA management has yet to screw an employee group over...they are good negotiators, fierce competitors, and take advantage of opportunities, yet they have taken care of their internal people too. Republic can't say the same thing.

 

[FDJ2]

Agree to an expedited timeline for seniority integration. A period of negotiations, followed by arbitration by a three man panel if necessary with a date certain integrated seniority list that is fair and equitable by either DCC or SOC. Certainly no one should have a problem with a fair and equitable list. It's a fair process, with the goal of a fair list with logic and reason prevailing over emotion and greed.

 

[shearedshaft]

If 94 more of your fellow pilots took the bird in the hand that was offered in your recent TA you would be bending over for a SLI wearing a sandpaper rubber. Fortunately, enough of your pilots had the vision and judgment not to sell out for marginally improved rates and chump change retro..

Actually, had the TA passed, we would have scope language that disallowed all domestic codeshare, but would have allowed Lynx to continue to operate, but get this, pay attention..here it comes, you missed it the first time around...wouldn't allow Lynx or Frontier to grow.

Get that? The TA protected SWAPA from Lynx taking over routes, they would have been capped. Instead, the TA got turned down, we gave the raises back to the company.

The company took 1/3 of our raises that we handed back, and bought (or is buying, who knows) Frontier. There is no cap on domestic codeshare, and no specific cap for Lynx, so they can sell them to Republic and we can watch SWAPA jobs go to the turboprop.

So, yes, turning the TA down was not a stellar deal.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Here is the word

Fellow Pilots,

Southwest Airlines made SWAPA aware of their intent to withdraw their bid to purchase Frontier Holdings if an agreement between SWAPA and FAPA could not be reached by midnight, EST on the 12th. Tonight SWAPA has reached an impasse with the Frontier Airline Pilots’ Association. Both parties have bargained all evening under a deadline for resolution for midnight (EST). At the deadline, neither party was willing to accept the other’s proposal. Southwest Airlines will petition the bankruptcy court for an extension on the Company’s final bid for Frontier tomorrow morning

 

[Megalops]

well Sh&%

 

[Richard Gozinya]

yes..........it is slipping away!

 

[shearedshaft]

Looks like it's dead. Tell your union leadership that biting off your nose to spite your face was just a fantastic way to go, you sure showed SWA who was boss.

I recommend Higher Power for your type rating, it helps to have it completed when you apply.

 

[firstthird]

shearedshaft,
one problem with your rosy view of TA1 was the inclusion of AGM in section one, that could have been used as a lever to force us to binding arbitration. then again, Gary and the GO could have structured it just like they did this and maybe it wouldn't have been a factor.
I think we were better off under our current CBA since it defines SWAPA as the sole bargaining unit for pilots flying SWA planes and pax, but honest people can disagree on that.
and we can agree that tubing this deal is better than agreeing to what FAPA was proposing.

firstthird

 

[Popeye0537]

Looks like it's dead. Tell your union leadership that biting off your nose to spite your face was just a fantastic way to go, you sure showed SWA who was boss.

I recommend Higher Power for your type rating, it helps to have it completed when you apply.

Ha ha ha your such a troll. I hope for F9's sake the deal is off the table, Republic wins the bid and F9 continues to operate as normal and hands Southwest its A$$ in DEN like it has been doing!

 

[firstthird]

and F9 continues to operate as normal and hands Southwest its A$$ in DEN like it has been doing!

I guess your definition of normal includes bankruptcy and auctions. good luck. I hope that RAH treats you better than Midwest but frankly that is between you guys. hopefully SWA can get back to organic growth that got us where we are today and will take us where we are going tomorrow.

p.s. good news for the guys in the pool. talk about the a crap situation. ain't over yet but it is looking brighter than it did for the last week.

 

[shearedshaft]

shearedshaft,
one problem with your rosy view of TA1 was the inclusion of AGM in section one, that could have been used as a lever to force us to binding arbitration. then again, Gary and the GO could have structured it just like they did this and maybe it wouldn't have been a factor.
I think we were better off under our current CBA since it defines SWAPA as the sole bargaining unit for pilots flying SWA planes and pax, but honest people can disagree on that.
and we can agree that tubing this deal is better than agreeing to what FAPA was proposing.

firstthird

I never jumped into the Allegheny/Mohawk argument, because it was explained to me that it was put in to protect SWAPA during an acquisition. After reading what you just wrote, I fear you might be correct, I just went back to the TA Q&A and it was ambiguous.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Southwest Airlines will petition the bankruptcy court for an extension on the Company’s final bid for Frontier tomorrow morning.

I guess for now the deadline is tomorrow.

 

[shearedshaft]

Ha ha ha your such a troll. I hope for F9's sake the deal is off the table, Republic wins the bid and F9 continues to operate as normal and hands Southwest its A$$ in DEN like it has been doing!

If Republic wins, F9 just continues along, no changes? Didn't you watch the uproar over at Midwest when the pilots were promised the same thing? Grievance after grievance, but no matter, RJs took over, the Douglas airplanes got sold and the Midwest pilots are scratching their heads, wondering what happened.

Republic doesn't have much money, they operate what has to be the most precarious airline business model out there: 50 seat RJs with fee-for-departure contract with companies that are about to sink back into bankruptcy, like UAL. It's not like American is up against SWA, it's a small regional carrier whose days are numbered.

 

[Bake]

Please, let this be over. Kill this deal and let them go to Republic and let them keep kicking our ass in Denver. We will see how long that lasts.

 

[firstthird]

I never jumped into the Allegheny/Mohawk argument, because it was explained to me that it was put in to protect SWAPA during an acquisition. After reading what you just wrote, I fear you might be correct, I just went back to the TA Q&A and it was ambiguous.

shearedshaft,

I'll take that as a thank you to us no voters.

you're welcome. imp:

and you are right it is ambiguous, which is great for lawyers who want to make fees, not so much for us line pukes. M/B scares me because it hasn't been litigated, I doubt our Transtar/Muse precedent would have counted for much and I doubt our ability to run F9 separately and draw them down, so I hope that crack deal of plan doesn't show up tomorrow.

I do wonder if we just lost our TA2 leverage though, but that is better than some sort of feather or ratio, imo.

firstthird

 

[kwick]

Just follow the law, have a fair seniority list integration and get the deal done!

Or, be stagnant, have no growth and be looking at 20 year upgrades.

Your call.

 

[Popeye0537]

I guess your definition of normal includes bankruptcy and auctions. good luck. I hope that RAH treats you better than Midwest but frankly that is between you guys. hopefully SWA can get back to organic growth that got us where we are today and will take us where we are going tomorrow.

p.s. good news for the guys in the pool. talk about the a crap situation. ain't over yet but it is looking brighter than it did for the last week.

Normal as in before the credit card hold back that put them in bankruptcy. F9 was making a small profit before BK and made one in BK, how has denver been working out for WN? From what I read you have 6 routes that continue to lose money flying out of DEN, that is why you want the competition out.

 

[Bake]

Sorry kwick, it ain't either/or.

 

[firstthird]

Just follow the law, have a fair seniority list integration and get the deal done!

Or, be stagnant, have no growth and be looking at 20 year upgrades.

Your call.

the unintended consequence of M/B is likely to be that good managements will avoid mergers that trigger M/B like the plague while bad airline managers won't care, much like before the law was passed.

it isn't the law to integrate if you don't buy or merge. since FAPA/SWAPA couldn't agree and our CEO is standing by his word, no deal (at least for now). that is as it should be.

and I'll take my chances with organic SWA growth over arbitrators decisions any day of the week.

 

[shearedshaft]

shearedshaft,

I'll take that as a thank you to us no voters.

Actually, you won't be surprised, but I don't think that Allegheny/Mohawk provisions make a hill of beans of difference, because if we combine craft and class, then we get it under Bond/McCaskill whether it's in our contract or not. It's federal law.

Now if you're saying that had the TA passed, the company could have forced us to use Allegheny/Mohawk to welcome the Frontier guys, I can reply that the company can do that to us at any time, simply by combining the two workgroups, they didn't need the contract.

I don't think it needed to be in there, but I don't think it would have caused any harm. It's federal law. Interestingly, that law could change and this little donnybrook might be the impetus to change it.

McCaskill is a chump anyway.

 

[firstthird]

I don't think it needed to be in there, but I don't think it would have caused any harm. It's federal law. Interestingly, that law could change and this little donnybrook might be the impetus to change it.

McCaskill is a chump anyway.

I agree about Sen. McCaskill, although she did tweet that some of the healthcare anger might be from real people and not just astroturf, so either she is more in touch than some of her party mates or she is feeling the heat.

I'm less sanguine about the chances of M/B changing anytime soon, getting a law off the books once it is on it much tougher than getting it on unless the deleterious effects are obvious even to gov't types, and even when they are, sometimes they just don't care.

 

[F9 Buff]

Ha ha ha your such a troll. I hope for F9's sake the deal is off the table, Republic wins the bid and F9 continues to operate as normal and hands Southwest its A$$ in DEN like it has been doing!

Anyone who has been in aviation for any length of time knows that today's top dog airline can easily be bankrupt tomorrow. Some goes for the carrier that was on the brink yesterday, tomorrow they might be the place to be.

Whatever keeps Frontier alive in Denver, and keeps anything texas related out, is good for Denver.

Give 'em hell Frontier!

 

[bluestreaking]

Anyone who has been in aviation for any length of time knows that today's top dog airline can easily be bankrupt tomorrow. Some goes for the carrier that was on the brink yesterday, tomorrow they might be the place to be.

Whatever keeps Frontier alive in Denver, and keeps anything texas related out, is good for Denver.

Give 'em hell Frontier!

Uhhh......Pass the crack pipe dude!

 

[GoodTimes]

"Same goes for the carrier that was on the brink yesterday, tomorrow they might be the place to be."


Who in this business has gone from "on the brink" to "the place to be"? I'd venture to say that only one company has pulled that off.....Southwest.

Give 'em hell Southwest!

 

[GuppyWN]

Are the F9 dudes on this forum happy to see the deal blowing up?

Do you feel your career will be more rewarding at RAH?

Thanks and good luck either way,
Gup

 

[The Victors]

Anyone who has been in aviation for any length of time knows that today's top dog airline can easily be bankrupt tomorrow. Some goes for the carrier that was on the brink yesterday, tomorrow they might be the place to be.

Whatever keeps Frontier alive in Denver, and keeps anything texas related out, is good for Denver.

Give 'em hell Frontier!

Are you really that stupid? Bankrupt? Like F9? Do you really think you stand a better chance with RAH?