Delta to Discontinue Hilton Head Operations

[WMUSIGPI]

Apply to Compass, and maybe someday you will be on the DL seniority list. If you don't, you will continue to watch your flying dwindle.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Why? I have about the same number in front of me at Mesaba for the flow up as I would at the bottom of the Compass list. And the way things are now sounding we also will be just a 76 jet operator within a couple years. That will be hard to staple Compass without us as well in that situation.

 

[BoilerUP]

The folks that run the HXD airport board want to lengthen the runway, but they fight a MAJOR uphill battle with the freaking developers and landowners down there. They all love the convenience of the airport for their King Airs and Citations, but GOD FORBID bigger planes become frequent visitors there!

Hell, they can't even cut down a few trees on the N end of the island to put a freaking glideslope on the LOC 21...which would be a MAJOR improvement during the frequent ground fog they get there.

Short of extending the runway north to 4800ft+, at least cutting the freaking trees down and letting the full 4300' be available for landing on 21 would help...

 

[General Lee]

Why? I have about the same number in front of me at Mesaba for the flow up as I would at the bottom of the Compass list. And the way things are now sounding we also will be just a 76 jet operator within a couple years. That will be hard to staple Compass without us as well in that situation.

IMO Compass has a better chance, since they are under our MEC umbrella already. We don't HAVE TO do anything, or we can push for something.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[kf4amu]

The folks that run the HXD airport board want to lengthen the runway, but they fight a MAJOR uphill battle with the freaking developers and landowners down there. They all love the convenience of the airport for their King Airs and Citations, but GOD FORBID bigger planes become frequent visitors there!

Big planes aren't needed there. THey have Savannah 20 miles away. If passengers wanna fly to Hilton Head, they can just pay a little extra premium for the convenience. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[gator_hater]

The people that live in HHH would beg to differ.

That would be a great new Delta slogan! "We're not in the business of getting everyone where they want to go"

I don't disagree but airlines are in the business to make $$ not just ferry people around the globe.

Just like Apple is not in the business of giving everyone a Mac or an iPhone. There is a premium for the product and if you can't make money the product goes bye bye.

 

[crj567]

I don't disagree but airlines are in the business to make $$ not just ferry people around the globe.

Just like Apple is not in the business of giving everyone a Mac or an iPhone. There is a premium for the product and if you can't make money the product goes bye bye.

Airline USED TO BE in the business of making money. They (at least the bigger ones) are now in the business of growing as large as possible as fast as possible so that they will be "too big to fail," and will become another ward of the state when they screw up. (By adding tons of INTL right before the biggest worldwide recession since the Great Depression-for instance.)

-Of course it is now all about the "synergies" which can be realized by screwing your employees, passengers, local communities and pretty much anyone else who you affect.

 

[crj567]

Well, fortunately I am senior enough to fly larger jets and to see the world on Delta's dime. But, if we staple Compass on our list, and then add larger Dashes onto their certificate, then that would solve a lot. It also would allow DL to monitor the training under our house, which is lacking with some regionals out there obviously. As far as LBB goes, I honestly will NEVER have to go there. Seniority is awesome.


Bye Bye--General Lee

YEP-

Damn lot of pilots at PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, etc., etc., etc. thought exactly the same thing.

-You better snap back into the real world, champ. The Delta we all knew is gone, the new guys ain't nothing like what you are accustomed to.

 

[wildbill]

Hilton Head has not changed since the 70's when we flew in there as Air South. Those Beech 99's did the job. Even the terminal is the same.. Of course it is the one by the FBO..

 

[BoilerUP]

Big planes aren't needed there. THey have Savannah 20 miles away.

You've evidently never driven between SAV and HXD. They're pretty close by air, but about 43 miles and 45-50 minutes apart by road.

And the "big planes" I'm talking about aren't just props and RJs; many bizjets are unable to use HXD due to their runway length and lack of a precision approach (be it ILS or LPV).

Would Delta be dropping the Saab service there if they could take a full boat in and out every time?

If passengers wanna fly to Hilton Head, they can just pay a little extra premium for the convenience. I don't see a problem with that.

I don't disagree with that...but there are artificial barriers in place by the NIMBYs there that not only limit the utility of the airport (the ability for passengers to have the OPTION to use HXD vs. SAV) but create operational issues for those who can use it and economic hardship for those who stand to benefit from things like fewer trees off the runway approach ends, a longer runway, and approach with a glideslope.

 

[kf4amu]

Every passenger still does have the option to use SAV or HXD, so not sure what you mean by that. And a 50 minute drive is not that bad to get to an airport. Wahhhh I want a 10 minute drive instead of a 50 minute drive Waahhhh!!

Why should people lengthen the runway for economic benefit if they don't want to? Nobody should force economic benefit on anyone. Obviously the majority do not want the airport lengthened, so if people don't like using it, they can go somewhere else. Some other island like HHH.

 

[NCFlyer]

Hilton Head has not changed since the 70's when we flew in there as Air South. Those Beech 99's did the job. Even the terminal is the same.. Of course it is the one by the FBO..

I'm not sure when the last time you were in HXD. There is a new terminal, it was built about 10 years ago or so. It is on the west side of the field. A new FBO was build and the old terminal that was shared with the FBO was torn down.

The runway was lengthened and widened 4300' x 100'. There are several T-hangers as well. And of course they now have a control tower, not just the cabana that operated for 2 weeks during the golf & tennis tournaments.

 

[wildbill]

Went in there in a G-III in '06. Runway goes by real fast.
The building we used for a terminal was still there.next to the FBO. Maybe gone now. I did not really get to see the new terminal, it was back in what seemed like a hollow. Watched a Dash abort a takeoff for some reason. That was interesting.
Those folks over there always wanted everything, but they did not want it in their backyard.

 

[SEVEN]

The runway was lengthened and widened 4300' x 100'.

That length is only for takeoff. Runway available for landing use is 4001 FT. with the displaced threshold. This is problem. The Saab can only land at around 25,000lbs with that length. This means fewer passengers especially when extra fuel is required. If we could use Flaps 35 for landing, that would help a bit, but too expensive to change the procedures. Bottom line, the Saab is not a good fit for Hilton Head and for Delta's future plans in general. That's why they WILL be phased out over the next 3 years.

 

[BoilerUP]

Every passenger still does have the option to use SAV or HXD, so not sure what you mean by that.

You're right...they have the option to use HXD, as long as they want to fly on US Airways to and from CLT (airline) or have an airplane that can meet the performance requirements of that runway (bizav).

And a 50 minute drive is not that bad to get to an airport. Wahhhh I want a 10 minute drive instead of a 50 minute drive Waahhhh!!

But the Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport isn't in Hilton Head; its not even the same state as Hilton Head. HXD provides convenience to the residents & visitors of Hilton Head Island, and I agree that there should be an associated increase in cost for that convenience...but that convenience shouldn't come at an increased operational risk for those who choose to utilize it

Why should people lengthen the runway for economic benefit if they don't want to? Nobody should force economic benefit on anyone. Obviously the majority do not want the airport lengthened, so if people don't like using it, they can go somewhere else. Some other island like HHH.

No, the majority of people on Hilton Head Island like the airport and would appreciate the increased safety a longer runway and precision approach would provide...and I'm sure they'd appreciate the increased airline service and destinations that a longer runway would allow.

Even if the runway isn't extended, removing some of the trees from the approach end of 21 would make operations safer and remove/reduce the displaced threshold there, allowing more runway to be available for landing and possibly allowing for a precision approach to 21.

There's really no reason to NOT do that...

...but you're right. If enough people want it, they'll get it...IF they can convince the politicians to buy off on it.

 

[NuGuy]

Yea I counted 42 one day when you guys were boarding. I flew the Dash 8 300's in and out a couple of times and it was tuff to get 40-42 on it out of HHH.

Our Dash 8 100's due really well (33pax), but the Mesaba Crew told me they could only take 19 pax out and 10 bags. I was wondering if that was even worth the trip.

Be nice now if we could go back to the days we had 14 flights a day from CLT-HHH. Those were the party days! 8 crews at the hotel = trouble!

Heyas,

I remember those days. The -100s would have a problem taking out 37 IF you needed an alternate, but other that that, and with the -200s, it was 37 in, 37 out, every time, all the time.

We used to fly out of the "hut" on the east side of the field. What hilarity that was. Eagle used to fly to RIC, but bailed out around 94 or so. GPExpress would fly the 99 to ATL, and had a crew base in HHH, but that folded when they did.

They used to say with what they were charging to go CLT-HHH, the break even pax load on the -8 was in the single digits.

Nu

 

[SEVEN]

http://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/story/920653.html

 

[JoeMerchant]

"Delta flights -- operated by the regional carrier Mesaba -- can carry only a little more than half of the plane's capacity -- 18 passengers when landing and 23 when taking off, according to the airline's station closure plan."

More landing than taking off? Hmmmm....

 

[kf4amu]

or have an airplane that can meet the performance requirements of that runway (bizav).

What a concept!

But the Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport isn't in Hilton Head; its not even the same state as Hilton Head.

Then we should have a damn airport in Rock Hill, SC so those poor bastards dont have to drive 30 minutes to CLT!

HXD provides convenience to the residents & visitors of Hilton Head Island, and I agree that there should be an associated increase in cost for that convenience...but that convenience shouldn't come at an increased operational risk for those who choose to utilize it

I don't see how there is an operational risk flying in and out of there...in a Dash 8 anyway. So what, you have to go missed on a LOC approach? Sure would be nice to get in but if enough passengers were inconvenienced by going to SAV, they would rattle the cages and get the runway lengthened.

Any other airline is welcome to put Dash's on those routes and compete.

 

[BoilerUP]

I don't see how there is an operational risk flying in and out of there...in a Dash 8 anyway.

It should have occurred to me earlier that somebody flying for Piedmont, who stands to benefit from being the only carrier in the market, would have a myopic opinion like that...

 

[kf4amu]

It should have occurred to me earlier that somebody flying for Piedmont, who stands to benefit from being the only carrier in the market, would have a myopic opinion like that...

Don't go into HXD if its not safe. Don't continue the approach if its not safe.

And Piedmont won't benefit one bit. If anything we'll get another overnight or two, but I'm not counting on anything good happening that us pilots can see.

 

[WSurf]

It should have occurred to me earlier that somebody flying for Piedmont, who stands to benefit from being the only carrier in the market, would have a myopic opinion like that...

Hmmm, I was also wondering about the operational risk at HHH? Seems to me if you just know the limitations of your airplane that you shouldn't have a problem flying into HHH.

We have been running Dash 8's out of there for many years with no issue. ASA had no problems with the ATR's in and out of there.

Tuffer landing there when the runway was only 75 feet wide, now with the added width its not even an adventure anymore on windy days.

Actually I gotta trip next week that gets me done at noon. Cold drinks at the beach followed up by 'Wild Wings' for dinner. Can't wait, it been too long.

 

[BoilerUP]

Hmmm, I was also wondering about the operational risk at HHH? Seems to me if you just know the limitations of your airplane that you shouldn't have a problem flying into HHH.

You're 100% right about knowing the limitations of your airplane.

The problem is that many airplanes (Saabs, for example) are performance limited at HXD because of the available runway for landing, and those performance limitations have a financial impact. Sure your Dash or my CJ or a Cirrus or a King Air don't have any problem, but there are lots of other aircraft that are severely restricted because, even if the runway isn't lengthened, they won't take down the trees from the approach end of 21. This is true especially when wet, where having an extra 300' available for landing could make the difference between getting in and airborne holding to burn fuel or a divert.

The fact that there's no glideslope on the LOC 21 is another limiting factor for HXD because it, well, limits the airport's usefulness to you when dealing with low ceilings and/or fog which often hang juuuuuuuuuust over the island off the coast. Sure SAV is 10-15 minutes away by air, but wouldn't MANY operators (maybe even Piedmont) stand to gain both operationally and economically from a precision approach and/or no displaced threshold on 21?

 

[kf4amu]

wouldn't MANY operators (maybe even Piedmont) stand to gain both operationally and economically from a precision approach and/or no displaced threshold on 21?

Yes in a few cases every year sure, but apparently to the islanders, its not worth taking down trees etc to avoid the 45 minute drive after a diversion.

Plus, the carriers economic and operational benefits aren't even on the radar scope of those people. And why should they be?

 

[WSurf]

You're 100% right about knowing the limitations of your airplane.

The problem is that many airplanes (Saabs, for example) are performance limited at HXD because of the available runway for landing, and those performance limitations have a financial impact. Sure your Dash or my CJ or a Cirrus or a King Air don't have any problem, but there are lots of other aircraft that are severely restricted because, even if the runway isn't lengthened, they won't take down the trees from the approach end of 21. This is true especially when wet, where having an extra 300' available for landing could make the difference between getting in and airborne holding to burn fuel or a divert.

The fact that there's no glideslope on the LOC 21 is another limiting factor for HXD because it, well, limits the airport's usefulness to you when dealing with low ceilings and/or fog which often hang juuuuuuuuuust over the island off the coast. Sure SAV is 10-15 minutes away by air, but wouldn't MANY operators (maybe even Piedmont) stand to gain both operationally and economically from a precision approach and/or no displaced threshold on 21?

True and I agree 100%, but that isn't our problem. Its the problem of the airline and what aircraft they are willing to operate in there. Sure the Dash is was built for that and who knows how long Piedmont will be around. I just don't see the Island folks doing anything about it.

There are only a few days out of the year that the weather gets to bad and we have to divert to SAV.

Now if someone steps up and get some Q400's (looking at its Performance Data. 500 miles or shorter it can carrier 70 pax on a 3,700' runway) that plane would do some damage in and out of HHH.

Bottom line at Hilton Head if an airline wants to operate they are gonna have to be willing to deal with what they got. And from what I have heard from US Airways folks HHH is in the top 3 yields for US Airways. Definitely a money maker for Airways.

 

[Gulf-front]

WOW, this thread is now longer then the runway in HHH!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

It was the top money making station in the ASA system. More than Key West or any other domestic or even international station. What a shame....

 

[kf4amu]

It was the top money making station in the ASA system. More than Key West or any other domestic or even international station. What a shame....

Well that just proves that airlines aren't in the business of making money.

 

[flyn96]

IMO Compass has a better chance, since they are under our MEC umbrella already. We don't HAVE TO do anything, or we can push for something.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Mmm, we don't HAVE TO let you flow down either!