Is Colgan toast?

[anon]

How much liability can Colgan absorb? Would CO be able to keep them afloat or will this be it for them?

 

[Fred Rogers]

It will be interesting to watch play out. They are insured for this type of thing like any airline would be. Obviously there is a limit on that, but this is step 2 and that will play out at about step 4000.

One thing Colgan has on their side is how much money they make for CAL, and how much money that airplane makes. Hopefully that will keep them flying in the mean time. Wouldn't be suprised to see the name change. Wouldn't be suprised to see lots of "changes" in management, which is probably appropriate, especially considering how they are hammering on sick policies and pay.

The training program is OBVIOUSLY FAA 121 approved, so I would think they are not liable specifically for any deficiencies in recovery techniques etc. Would make the assumption since they are saying that their training is similar to Bombardier / Flight Safety that it does not look much different than Horizon etc.

 

[jetpig32]

Well, Colgan has hull/liability through Delta's aircraft insurance co. Suits will probably be made against CO, FAA, Bombardier, Flight Safety, the Pilots estates, New York Port Authority, Buffalo Airport Authority, Alaska/Fedex/Ups (all mentioned in the CVR), the manufacturer of the stick shaker, pusher, ice itself, ALPA, Allah, Yahweh, Dali Lama, God, etc.

 

[propsarebest]

Don't forget P&W and Thales...

 

[satpak77]

If my family was in the back and I learned about this, I would OWN Colgan

 

[lowtimedriver]

If my family was in the back and I learned about this, I would OWN Colgan

And many will. There will be huge punitive damages awarded in this one. Juries, if it gets that far, don't like gross negligence.

 

[satpak77]

And many will. There will be huge punitive damages awarded in this one. Juries, if it gets that far, don't like gross negligence.

And I hope they do. I hope Gulfstream Academy is named also. Financial accountability (ie: lawsuit) is the only language these people understand. They pay pilots peanuts, meanwhile the execs earn what?

MONEY is the only language they listen to. Time to talk BACK to them in MONEY.

Expect the FAA to get sued too ("how could the government let this happen..." etc etc).

Maybe, just maybe, a rare legit lawsuit will serve as a wake-up call to all parties involved.

 

[Sig]

MONEY is the only language they listen to. Time to talk BACK to them in MONEY.

Just saying, for what it is worth-

You have a lot of animosity towards Colgan and that crew. I don't know why, but you do.

On this forum I've gone so far as to play recess sleeper: I invited a "tough CJC guy" to come whip my arse in LGA during one unimpressive exchange. That was simply brouhaha. The fact I'd stomp a mudhole in that guy's arse notwithstanding...

This event affects all of us. I'd never wish this particular kind of hardship on anyone. It HAPPENS, and anyone with a shred of perspective knows it.

So what peeved you about them? Why would you own them? Are you above reproach?

You seem reasonable, I just want to know what event truly torqued you about this.

 

[satpak77]

Just saying, for what it is worth-

You have a lot of animosity towards Colgan and that crew. I don't know why, but you do.

On this forum I've gone so far as to play recess sleeper: I invited a "tough CJC guy" to come whip my arse in LGA during one unimpressive exchange. That was simply brouhaha. The fact I'd stomp a mudhole in that guy's arse notwithstanding...

This event affects all of us. I'd never wish this particular kind of hardship on anyone. It HAPPENS, and anyone with a shred of perspective knows it.

So what peeved you about them? Why would you own them? Are you above reproach?

You seem reasonable, I just want to know what event truly torqued you about this.

Fair question. I will give a fair answer, from the heart (Miss USA 2009 jokes aside...)

In my opinion, two Part 121 pilots should not have failed to catch an approaching stall, then (ok, they were tired...they failed to catch it), then after they discovered the stall late, responded improperly.

The comments about "chip light" by the FO (sitting in the front of a Part 121 turboprop), etc, only add more pain to the misery.

This was Airmanship 101. Have I ever gotten a little slow on an approach? Sure. Have I missed a ATC heading change, or bungled a STAR? Sure. Landed a little harder than normal? Of course.

Have my copilot and I, collectively, fully stalled the airplane in ice (when we should have been "heads up" anyway), at night, then responded incorrectly?

Uh, Nope, haven't done that one yet. 50 passengers in the back in Buffalo weren't planning on it either.

In summary, at the end of the day, a pretty dum-dum error in the "pilot error" column caused this, in the "you gotta be sh--ing me" category.

Runaway trim? Ice lodged in elevator? Loss of EFIS, etc? Pilot has heart attack and heaves back on yoke as he flops around? Ok, I can accept this tragedy with a little less shock.

But a stall?

Not to repeat myself, but are you sh--ting me?

 

[CX880]

That's why there is insurance folks.... RIP to the deceased but this isn't the biggest aviation disaster we've ever had. Rightfully so the insurance will pay a few million each and the status quo will continue at the regionals.

 

[Erlanger]

And I hope they do. I hope Gulfstream Academy is named also. Financial accountability (ie: lawsuit) is the only language these people understand. They pay pilots peanuts, meanwhile the execs earn what?

MONEY is the only language they listen to. Time to talk BACK to them in MONEY.

Expect the FAA to get sued too ("how could the government let this happen..." etc etc).

Maybe, just maybe, a rare legit lawsuit will serve as a wake-up call to all parties involved.

The FAA can't be sued.

 

[9rj9]

Colgan will have a hard time renewing their insurance, I think theyre done in current form. CAL will drop them and find some other low bidder, MESA ??

 

[Minimaniac]

Colgan will probably undergo a name change...who knows, this may be a catalyst for a full merger into Pinnacle. No one has dropped a regional carrier over an accident, even for gross pilot error. Some lawsuits will stick, but the devastating ones will be the suits against the pilots' estates. The only real causalties in the aftermath will be the families of the pilots who lose everything even though they themselves did not make any judgement errors or kill anyone. SO long as Colgan can hide behind FAA approved training, they are safe. Not to mention, they twice held this captain to a high standard which he could not meet, so it shows that Colgan was not deficient in training but the captain was. The FAA will of course go on endangering the publics safety without recourse or reprimand. The aircraft appears to have performed as it was designed, and all the designed safety features worked as planned, so Bombardier will be clear. The only thing that went wrong was pilot actions. I could see a good case being built against those who trained the pilots, including Gulfstream and whoever else touched these pilot's logbooks over the years, but truth be told, even the lawyers don't really have a good sense as to the root cause of the problem. You may see Gulfstream tagged if the lawyers feel they can't squeeze enough out of the pilots' estates.

 

[30West]

If my family was in the back and I learned about this, I would OWN Colgan

Well we can't all be perfect and above mistakes like you I guess.

 

[30West]

In my opinion, two Part 121 pilots should not have failed to catch an approaching stall....

.....or forgotten to set flaps for takeoff or lost situational awareness in the mountains of South America or tried to beat a thunderstorm to the airport or attempted to takeoff covered in snow or flown a perfectly good airplane into the everglades, yadda yadda yadda. I guarantee you none of those crews set out with those outcomes in mind.
Your "it can't happen to me" armchair QB judgemental attitude is far more dangerous than any lack of proficiency that crew might have had.




Uh, Nope, haven't done that one yet.

Uh, neither had this crew, up until that point. Again you seem to be implying it would never happen to you.

.......

 

[Skippy]

yes there will be a name change-- there almost always is folloring an accident and its not a major airline.

yesterday the faa poi announced that volgan made it's intention known to get another 15 q's--- i doubt CAL drops them- it's about money and colgan is cheap

 

[Grinder10]

This will be the impetus for Colgan to be fully merged with Pinnacle. PCL ALPA will get their wish of one list/one company, although a tragic crash was not the best way for it to happen.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I agree with minimaniac and grinder. Listening to the NTSB hearing for the last couple days, it is apparent the Colgan training department and administrative structure needs to GO. Mary Finnegan doesn't know the pay rates for F/Os? YGBSM.

They don't sim train stick shakers and stick pushers? YGBSM.

These clowns have no business in the airline industry.

 

[cale42]

I'm not for one second defending this crew.. I think they screwed the pooch.

But two points keep being made that bug me. I'm typed on the Q, through flightsafety and have also done airline specific training on it. Stick pusher training is not part of any program I have seen. I've had it demoed for me in the sim because I wanted to see what it looked like, but not a part of required training.

Second, the Q doesn't have a chip detect feature that is visible to the pilots like most props. That function is hidden in an enigmatic Powerplant message, that can mean one of about 17 things none of which the crew can identify. If that's the only turbine aircraft the girl ever flew she wouldn't necessarily have know what that was.

Again, not for one second defending the crew in any way shape or form, but don't incriminate them for things beyond their control.

cale

 

[30West]

Again, not for one second defending the crew in any way shape or form, but don't incriminate them for things beyond their control.

cale

Agreed. Unfortunately there's chum in the water and this site is top heavy with scavengers.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Did Colgan recently change their requirements, or has it always been listed as 1000 hrs total?

 

[flynryan15]

Did Colgan recently change their requirements, or has it always been listed as 1000 hrs total?

Colgan's total time requirement changes with supply and demand. Early 2008 and late 2007 when everyone was hiring Colgan's minimums were 300/50.

 

[planejockey]

perfect reason for pinchanickle and depressjet to merge. They both would benefit from this since sheputtle and sky pest are bigger than both PNCL and XJT. RAH and SKYW have a future plan unlike depressjet.

 

[Long Time Gone]

This will be the impetus for Colgan to be fully merged with Pinnacle. PCL ALPA will get their wish of one list/one company, although a tragic crash was not the best way for it to happen.

You're the first I've seen to actually mention Pinnacle in this. I'm curious as to how many lawyers will have suit filed against Pinnacle also, since they're the holding company, and have had numerous accidents and incidents due to stupidity in the past.

When will the FAA finally crack down hard on Pinnacle? Yes, the Colgan accident belongs to Colgan, however, just as Skywest has a hand in ASA, Pinnacle has a hand in Colgan and is just as responsible.

 

[Sig]

Stick pusher training is not part of any program I have seen. I've had it demoed for me in the sim because I wanted to see what it looked like, but not a part of required training.

A rather prescient bit of "show me this," huh?

The upgrade program at PDT doesn't include it... because the -100 sim in CLT doesn't have a pusher. However, when we were going gangbusters and renting sim time elsewhere, if the sim was a -300 (SEA), you saw a fluke push (not due to a stall). From the folks who saw it, it was a mad scramble to hang on and remember where that danged shutoff switch was.

Every one of them had the same initial reaction.... and take a wild guess what that was.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

A rather prescient bit of "show me this," huh?

The upgrade program at PDT doesn't include it... because the -100 sim in CLT doesn't have a pusher. However, when we were going gangbusters and renting sim time elsewhere, if the sim was a -300 (SEA), you saw a fluke push (not due to a stall). From the folks who saw it, it was a mad scramble to hang on and remember where that danged shutoff switch was.

Every one of them had the same initial reaction.... and take a wild guess what that was.

Well put Sig. It is about muscle memory in cases like that. I would be hard pressed to find the S/O switch as little as I fly the 300. This really ought to be trained.

FYI... 2 airlines, 3 airplanes with pushers. I have never trained a pusher event.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Well, Colgan has hull/liability through Delta's aircraft insurance co. Suits will probably be made against CO, FAA, Bombardier, Flight Safety, the Pilots estates, New York Port Authority, Buffalo Airport Authority, Alaska/Fedex/Ups (all mentioned in the CVR), the manufacturer of the stick shaker, pusher, ice itself, ALPA, Allah, Yahweh, Dali Lama, God, etc.

Sounds like you have a good future in suing the planet.

 

[G-force]

RE: SUING the FAA!!

The FAA can't be sued.

Yes Erlanger dude, they can be sued!!
It has happened before!!

Yes,Colgan probably is toast!!!

 

[30West]

Yes Erlanger dude, they can be sued!!
It has happened before!!

Yes,Colgan probably is toast!!!

And the sky is falling! Global warming! Everybody panic! Sheesh.

 

[satpak77]

The FAA can't be sued.

I guess your legal education is more than mine. Can't be sued? Tell that to JetBlue, Continental, American, et al and their respective well backed legal departments.

http://www.avvo.com/news/seven-airlines-file-lawsuit-against-faa-109.html

Be careful on the Bar Exam, tort law is a topic. You might brush up on it.