Looks like it might be over for VA...

[Secret Squirrel]

LOL...what JungleJett said!

LOL! what the hell are you talking about? Seems to me Southwest has more often then not been the victim of people not playing on a level playing field.

 

[WAZUP]

This figures.

A few years ago we bought tickets on Aloha. Then the next year we bought tickets on ATA. Yesterday, I just bought tickets on VA for this summer vacation.

I have that curse. You better hope that I dont buy a ticket on your airline next.

Buy some tickets on Mesa

 

[mozzer]

Jetblue does not outsource maintenance to TACA AEROMAN in San Salvador along with Us airways. I have not flown planes down there, stayed in the radisson downtown with the awesome free breakfast, or jumpseated home on Delta. I have not bought delta crews cheap duty free liquor because I posess a ticket and crews are not allowed to buy the duty free in the airport.

Jetblue does not have full time inspectors that work there full time.

I bet you didn't go to "lips" either....

 

[JungleJett]

Curious...why do legacy carriers have more right to operate an airline than "other" carriers?

Seems you guys want a monopoly on who can provide lift.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Holly chimes in.

http://www.planebuzz.com/


March 11, 2009
Virgin UnAmerica

Today the Wall Street Journal ran a story which seems to confirm what we had assumed was going to happen, as we had discussed in PlaneBusiness Banter a number of times over the last several months.

The two "U.S." firms that invested in Richard Branson's Virgin America operation have apparently taken advantage of the fine print in their investing agreement with the airline and headed for the hills.

These investors controlled 77% of the airline.

Since U.S. carriers must be at least 75% owned and controlled by U.S. investors, this departure would seem to place Virgin America's status as a US-owned carrier in jeopardy. Unless the airline has somehow been able to find other U.S. based investors to fill the void. But as far as we have heard, that has not happened.

Word on the street for the last several months has been that Black Canyon Capital and Cyrus Capital Partners were going to pull the trigger on their investment. Heck, in my opinion they would have been crazy not to. The two negotiated a sweet "out clause" when they put money into the venture.

By pulling the plug now, the two were entitled to receive all of their original investment back, plus 8% interest, amounting to roughly $150 million combined between the two.


Not bad, considering the airline the two "invested in" has done nothing but lose hundreds of millions of dollars since its start-up -- a fact the airline couldn't hide any longer after it was finally forced to submit its Form 41 DOT data to the DOT recently.

A normal person could conclude that if, in fact, Black Canyon and Cyrus have exited the mood-lighted building, Virgin America would now either a) have new investors already lined up or b) be in violation of DOT ownership requirements.

It is important to note that Virgin has not issued a statement or release trumpeting the corralling of any additional U.S. investors.

One would think that the airline would have been out in front of this -- announcing new money -- as a way to deflect talk of its being in violation of DOT ownership regulations or of being in danger of a possible shutdown.

But they have been noticeably mute.

Which is exactly why we are talking today about how it would appear the airline is, just as Alaska Air Group claimed in a recent complaint to the DOT, not in compliance with the DOT foreign ownership rules, and two, yes, this means the airline is in danger of being shut down.

 

[RedDogC130]

Curious...why do legacy carriers have more right to operate an airline than "other" carriers?

Seems you guys want a monopoly on who can provide lift.

No, we do not want foreign owned airlines based in the U.S. if they can abide by the rules then they can compete like everyone else...if not shut their fcking doors now.

 

[clickclickboom]

It not about monopoly its about looking back just 10 years and talking to legacy FO's that were making $150,000 to $200,000 in the right seat of a 757

Just a few short years later you have guys making 70k in a 170000lb plane and they compare their situation to some bottom feeder regional.

 

[JungleJett]

No, we do not want foreign owned airlines based in the U.S. if they can abide by the rules then they can compete like everyone else...if not shut their fcking doors now.

It seems some of these comments were directed at places like JB and AT...and to a certain extent, SWA.

I would agree that if the cannot abide by the current laws...then they should never have been given the opportunity to operate within the US.

 

[RedDogC130]

It seems some of these comments were directed at places like JB and AT...and to a certain extent, SWA.

I would agree that if the cannot abide by the current laws...then they should never have been given the opportunity to operate within the US.

I do not get the first statement..about JB SWA and AT....did I miss something previously....

But for VA they had the required US citizen ownership when they started..now it seems they do not...CLOSE THE DOORS until they do...it is that simple.

 

[flyipilot]

Holly chimes in.

http://www.planebuzz.com/


March 11, 2009
Virgin UnAmerica

Today the Wall Street Journal ran a story which seems to confirm what we had assumed was going to happen, as we had discussed in PlaneBusiness Banter a number of times over the last several months.

The two "U.S." firms that invested in Richard Branson's Virgin America operation have apparently taken advantage of the fine print in their investing agreement with the airline and headed for the hills.

These investors controlled 77% of the airline.

Since U.S. carriers must be at least 75% owned and controlled by U.S. investors, this departure would seem to place Virgin America's status as a US-owned carrier in jeopardy. Unless the airline has somehow been able to find other U.S. based investors to fill the void. But as far as we have heard, that has not happened.

Word on the street for the last several months has been that Black Canyon Capital and Cyrus Capital Partners were going to pull the trigger on their investment. Heck, in my opinion they would have been crazy not to. The two negotiated a sweet "out clause" when they put money into the venture.

By pulling the plug now, the two were entitled to receive all of their original investment back, plus 8% interest, amounting to roughly $150 million combined between the two.


Not bad, considering the airline the two "invested in" has done nothing but lose hundreds of millions of dollars since its start-up -- a fact the airline couldn't hide any longer after it was finally forced to submit its Form 41 DOT data to the DOT recently.

A normal person could conclude that if, in fact, Black Canyon and Cyrus have exited the mood-lighted building, Virgin America would now either a) have new investors already lined up or b) be in violation of DOT ownership requirements.

It is important to note that Virgin has not issued a statement or release trumpeting the corralling of any additional U.S. investors.

One would think that the airline would have been out in front of this -- announcing new money -- as a way to deflect talk of its being in violation of DOT ownership regulations or of being in danger of a possible shutdown.

But they have been noticeably mute.

Which is exactly why we are talking today about how it would appear the airline is, just as Alaska Air Group claimed in a recent complaint to the DOT, not in compliance with the DOT foreign ownership rules, and two, yes, this means the airline is in danger of being shut down.

Of course VA is not saying anything. They never do. They never want to say anything but how their Inflight entertainment system works or what half naked women they will be flying around as a marketing ploy. VA is most likely in violation as I write this but our govt. could care less. It is that simple. They do not care. If they did, they would stop them yesturday. How can the DOT give them such hassles to get certified in the first place then when it falls apart, they do nothing? I would bet my life if us American citizens started an airline in the U.K. and we lost our British funding, we would be locked out at the jetway. Our govt. views it like a game as they to most everything else in aviation. The worst part is everysay they allow VA to operate in violation of their so called agreement with the DOT, the US airlines are being disgraced by a huge slap in the industry face by the very govt. that wrote the rules to protect the US owned companies. If VA has lined up new money....use it NOW. Great..I could not be more happy. But, to allow them to operate illegal, well I think we should fine the DOT everyday they allow it. But, like I said, they just don't care......

 

[Baze]

Today's San Francisco Chronicle article on VA:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...RR16CRAC.DTL&hw=virgin+america&sn=001&sc=1000

 

[igneousy2]

The way this economy is - why would anyone hope that somebody loses their job? I am surprised at some of these comments.

Remember - the fight is against management, not the employess! I am sure we all know at least someone who is at VA who was laid off from our current airline - why would you want them to get laid off!

Metrojet

Why would I want them to get laid off?

Well let's start with why wouldn't I want them to get laid off?

First of all A non-probationary First Officer at Alaska Airlines made over $100 an hour...almost what a top VA Captain makes today. So here we are trying to make the case to our company that the pay cut forced on us in an arbitration was draconian and we not only deserve to get paid at least as much as we did 4 years ago...but we should get MORE. But along comes this fly-by-night "Brit in Liberty's clothing" company, skirting our laws, paying their pilots a fraction of what we are getting $95 f*ning dollars an hour to be a CAPTAIN of an airliner going directly against us in our bread-and-butter markets...Giving our management an excuse to cry poverty!

Now don't get me wrong, although VA has been a big obstacle to progress thus far, I don't fault the individual pilots for taking the jobs, you are welcome on our jumpseats anytime as I hope we are welcome on yours, If you grow the cahones to Strike we will not fly your struck work, etc. etc., yada yada.

However, VA has thus far flown because they have skirted the law...though technically in compliance with the letter of the law few would argue they are alingned in the spirit. When you skirt the law like this a company better be damn sure every 'i' is dotted and 't' crossed.

Well my company and others now believe they have found a couple of undotted 'i's and maybe an uncrossed 't'. I agree and I cheer their efforts and I hope the DOT will see it our way before any more damage can be done....and don't be offended if I pound a couple of nails in your coffin myself if given the opportunity.

Later

 

[thruthemurk]

The government in this country could give two sh!ts about the workers. When VA was applying to start up, and pitting SF against other cities to get tax breaks, the governator fell all over himself to welcome them into town. (with millions of TAXPAYER dollars in breaks and incentives).

Say what you will about UA, they built SFO and supplied nearly 10,000 GOOD PAYING jobs to the bay area. Was any governmental money available to them in the post 9/11 tailspin?

Of course not. Swchwarzenhuggen and the gay elite loved the idea of free floating RB who actually brushes elbows with the stars coming to town and shaking things up!! No matter that the payscale for their employees was nothing short of despicable, and the claim to be American-run was a wink wink nod nod to the knowing. VA actually responded to claims of not being American run by running a PR campaign to publicize the fact that they had fired Fred Reid go become compliant! Fred Reid is an American!!

For those of you that say the laws are antiquated - fine!! Change them. In the meantime throw the limey bastard and his employee - subjagating ways back across the pond.

 

[kingair1]

At Alaska we lost an FO to VA. All he would talk about is the low pay at Alaska. I hope he never makes it anywhere. Yeah buddy you know who I am !!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

At Alaska we lost an FO to VA. All he would talk about is the low pay at Alaska. I hope he never makes it anywhere. Yeah buddy you know who I am !!

At JB, we had a f-ckstick that actually finished up IOE by telling his Check Airman that he was leaving the following week for VA.

I'm all for going to the place that makes sense, but show some class for Pete's sake.

 

[GuppyWN]

Be careful who you crap on today - they could be your Chief Pilot tomorrow.

Gup

 

[fam62c]

Of course VA is not saying anything. They never do. They never want to say anything but how their Inflight entertainment system works or what half naked women they will be flying around as a marketing ploy. VA is most likely in violation as I write this but our govt. could care less. It is that simple. They do not care. If they did, they would stop them yesturday. How can the DOT give them such hassles to get certified in the first place then when it falls apart, they do nothing? I would bet my life if us American citizens started an airline in the U.K. and we lost our British funding, we would be locked out at the jetway. Our govt. views it like a game as they to most everything else in aviation. The worst part is everysay they allow VA to operate in violation of their so called agreement with the DOT, the US airlines are being disgraced by a huge slap in the industry face by the very govt. that wrote the rules to protect the US owned companies. If VA has lined up new money....use it NOW. Great..I could not be more happy. But, to allow them to operate illegal, well I think we should fine the DOT everyday they allow it. But, like I said, they just don't care......

The DOT moves so slowly that I doubt anything will happen for quite some time. I also think that they are in no hurry to take any quick action that will result in a company being shut down and jobs being lost in this economy. My guess is that VA will either find new investors or take advantage of some technicality in the law to comply. They must have known a long time ago that there was a good chance the investors would bail out and they must have planned for it. Whatever happens, I will be very, very surprised if the DOT pulls VA's operating authority even if they aren't complying with the law. It's more likely that they get a slap on the wrist and a small fine. If Branson has friends in the right places (on either side of the pond) with enough pull VA has no worries; that's just the way things work.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

/\

Once again, the rich mans world prevails...

 

[Deli Guy]

/\

Once again, the rich mans world prevails...

Down with rich men!!!!

 

[jonjuan]

Yeah-down with first class too!