continental pension underfunding

[tie1on]

Houston chron (in the paper) reports on sat that the pension is underfunded by $1.4 billion. got to love the crack management team.

The potential issues with this are huge.

What happens if the pilots take a run on the fund? IE lump sum. It is a double edge sword. short pilots and money. the senior guys who do not take the money soon will loose out on the lump sum option, but hey they haven't been too bright to begin with.

 

[CitationLover]

Houston chron (in the paper) reports on sat that the pension is underfunded by $1.4 billion. got to love the crack management team.

The potential issues with this are huge.

What happens if the pilots take a run on the fund? IE lump sum. It is a double edge sword. short pilots and money. the senior guys who do not take the money soon will loose out on the lump sum option, but hey they haven't been too bright to begin with.

Learn pension law before spouting things. Below a certain % lump sums ARE NOT ALLOWED anymore, that's federal law. EVERYONE's pension is down, take a look at your 401k? This isn't a management generated issue, but a Bush one.

 

[tie1on]

ok expert. I am not one. check you poor little ego. as of janaury 1 they had 280 mill for the pilots, it is at 33% funding way below what is required.

check your facts. I was just reporting what was in the paper. so what is your fight in this battle, and what do you care expert.

 

[CitationLover]

ok expert. I am not one. check you poor little ego. as of janaury 1 they had 280 mill for the pilots, it is at 33% funding way below what is required.

check your facts. I was just reporting what was in the paper. so what is your fight in this battle, and what do you care expert.

you cannot "run" a pension when your "run" mechanism is NOT allowed by federal law, just a fact.

where did you get the "funding percentage" from? do you have a copy of the last IRS Form 5500 Schedule B which tells you the REAL funding %? reporters get this wrong all the time (taking SFAS 87 results - ie corporate earnings as "funding") Actuarial valuations of pension plans (defined benefit plans and NOT defined contribution plans) occur ONCE a year for funding purposes.

and of course their asset pool is taking a hit, 99.99% of ALL pension asset pools are taking a hit these days.

so please educate yourself on the topic and read alittle before sensationalizing something. call the CAL R&I chair. read IRS regs, etc. here are the facts so far.

http://www.findleydavies.com/resourc...-4-06_RBB_.pdf

Benefit Restrictions
The bill provides for certain benefit restrictions if a plan’s funded ratio falls below specified levels. In
general, a plan amendment which increases benefits would be restricted if the funded ratio falls below 80%. Plans with a funded ratio between 60% and 80% could pay lump sums within certain
limitations. If the funded ratio falls below 60%, lump sum payments would be restricted altogether and benefit accruals would automatically be frozen. Plans of bankrupt sponsors funded below 100% could not pay lump sums.

http://pbgc.gov/query.html?col=plan&style=plan&qt=continental
http://pbgc.gov/query.html?qt=airlines&charset=iso-8859-1&style=plan&col=plan

they are not being managed by the PBGC YET. if the article is true and 33% is the real funding percentage the PBGC will get involved and all lose in that case. pilots, already frozen benefits, will be cut further to the PBGC guaranteed maximum amounts, etc. even if you got a LS recently before a PBGC takeover, guess what: they can come back to you and get some money back.

 

[tie1on]

are u one of the people who have the lump sum option?

what dog do you have in this fight?

I am just the messager. shoot if you like.

I think I struck a nerve, huh?

 

[CitationLover]

are u one of the people who have the lump sum option?

what dog do you have in this fight?

I am just the messager. shoot if you like.

I think I struck a nerve, huh?

I don't know anyone with a continental defined benefit pension. I am just telling you, your plan will not work due to federal law.

You're the one who seems to be in a tizzy here:

the senior guys who do not take the money soon will loose out on the lump sum option, but hey they haven't been too bright to begin with.

 

[T-Bags]

Learn pension law before spouting things. Below a certain % lump sums ARE NOT ALLOWED anymore, that's federal law. EVERYONE's pension is down, take a look at your 401k? This isn't a management generated issue, but a Bush one.

Nice uneducated jab....When will the left start taking blame? the market was at about 12500 when Harry and Nancy took over congress....the market trades on EXPECTATIONS. It trades on what you think will happen in the future, not on what has happened. The higher Barry's poll numbers, the more the market tanked....since Barry was elected, the market is down about 2000 points.

I never thought we'd see pure stupidity in this country again like we saw under FDR. I saw it in Venezuala, but never thought it would be here again...I was wrong.....you'll still be blaiming Bush in 4 years when the deficits are nearly a trillion and your pension is gone (as well as your 401K...)

 

[luckytohaveajob]

CAL is the MESA of the majors. I bet old Larry has Ornstein on the speed dial for labor advice. What would Jonathon do with the CAL frozen pension? Burn it to the ground. What will Larry do? Burn it to the ground as a plan to get the concessions he wants to survive the economic slump.

CAL pilots ALWAYS keep CAL on life support. History will repeat.

Creating crisis is the strategy to negotiate the next contract and Larry knows the play book very well. CAL pilots always fold on the bluff. And CAL ALPA is so corrupt they will help Larry make the play in a secret back room meeting and call it the politically correct decision selling out the bottom 80% of the list.

 

[tie1on]

I thinkwe have a winner

 

[TAWS]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/business/21pension.html

 

[SFR]

CAL is the MESA of the majors. I bet old Larry has Ornstein on the speed dial for labor advice. What would Jonathon do with the CAL frozen pension? Burn it to the ground. What will Larry do? Burn it to the ground as a plan to get the concessions he wants to survive the economic slump.

CAL pilots ALWAYS keep CAL on life support. History will repeat.

Creating crisis is the strategy to negotiate the next contract and Larry knows the play book very well. CAL pilots always fold on the bluff. And CAL ALPA is so corrupt they will help Larry make the play in a secret back room meeting and call it the politically correct decision selling out the bottom 80% of the list.

Mesa....really? Wow, I did not know Mesa would fly me 2 trips this year so far and pay me $16k for it....

The only complaint I have at CAL is that we don't separate domestic and international flying. I hate intl trips and never want one again!!

That is my only complaint... other than that I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Flopgut]

I think what tie1on is saying is: Guys who didn't get in on the early retirement are going to be in for a wild ride on this frozen pension. And rightfully so IMHO. They left a lot of money on the table when they decided to stay.

 

[eaglesview]

I think what tie1on is saying is: Guys who didn't get in on the early retirement are going to be in for a wild ride on this frozen pension. And rightfully so IMHO. They left a lot of money on the table when they decided to stay.

Rightfully so?? If a pilot decides to stay he deserves a "wild ride."

 

[Flopgut]

No less than anyone else!! You disagree?

Larry put big dollars (very big for CAL) out there for guys who wanted to excuse themselves from the "wild ride" and too few took it IMHO.

If A plan money goes away I will refuse to listen to a ERW eligible pilot complain about it or lift a finger to help them recoup losses in any extraordinary way.

EDIT: It's certainly going to be a wild ride for those of us on the bottom half of the list. Too much has already been givin to help the senior.

 

[eaglesview]

No less than anyone else!! You disagree?

No I don't disagree. None of us deserves this ride we are on.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Given the senior pilot's actions these last few years (e.g. no insurance for new hires for 6 months and food stamp wages), do you really think they would "watch out" for us in a seniority integration with United? I guarantee you the United pilot's already know that all they have to do is give the upper 25% of our seniority list a sweet deal and the senior Cal pilots will in turn allow the United pilots to staple and furlough those hired the last few years.

Oh, and for those of you who want to knock me on complaining about the poor new hire conditions here but working for Cal nonetheless, the same argument could be used against changing the retirement age to 65 when we all knew we had to comport to that. For some reason, it is wrong for me to complain about our working conditions but not for a 59 year old to complain about retiring when we both knew what we were getting into. The senior pilots accused us of an 'entitlement' mentality because our junior people were getting lines rather than reserve or expecting a quick upgrade to captain. I suppose thinking one should retain one's $200K/year part-time job rather than passing the wealth to the next guy isn't entitlement? As though because one had to leave an airline position and not make huge money one can't find work elsewhere.

So, in the spirit of the CAL selfishness culture, you can see the junior apathy towards this pension underfunding issue even if it is ultimately against the interests of junior seniority pilots as well.

It is this complete disinterest in one another and a unwillingness to share the wealth that leads me to think that a junior CAL pilot like myself (just over a 1000 off the bottom of the list) would not fare well at all in a merger with another airline. I was not looking to besmirch (or in today's parlance "disrespect") the United pilots, it is just given the recent rhetoric regarding our merger they were the obvious choice for this post.

One other thing, with 147 guys on furlough I have seen 3 straight open time pickups on the 757/767 in the last week. There are always extenuating circumstances but they surely don't apply most of the time. This 'screw you I got mine' attitude is a death sentence for any organization, us included.

 

[SFR]

Given the senior pilot's actions these last few years (e.g. no insurance for new hires for 6 months and food stamp wages), do you really think they would "watch out" for us in a seniority integration with United? I guarantee you the United pilot's already know that all they have to do is give the upper 25% of our seniority list a sweet deal and the senior Cal pilots will in turn allow the United pilots to staple and furlough those hired the last few years.

Oh, and for those of you who want to knock me on complaining about the poor new hire conditions here but working for Cal nonetheless, the same argument could be used against changing the retirement age to 65 when we all knew we had to comport to that. For some reason, it is wrong for me to complain about our working conditions but not for a 59 year old to complain about retiring when we both knew what we were getting into. The senior pilots accused us of an 'entitlement' mentality because our junior people were getting lines rather than reserve or expecting a quick upgrade to captain. I suppose thinking one should retain one's $200K/year part-time job rather than passing the wealth to the next guy isn't entitlement? As though because one had to leave an airline position and not make huge money one can't find work elsewhere.

So, in the spirit of the CAL selfishness culture, you can see the junior apathy towards this pension underfunding issue even if it is ultimately against the interests of junior seniority pilots as well.

It is this complete disinterest in one another and a unwillingness to share the wealth that leads me to think that a junior CAL pilot like myself (just over a 1000 off the bottom of the list) would not fare well at all in a merger with another airline. I was not looking to besmirch (or in today's parlance "disrespect") the United pilots, it is just given the recent rhetoric regarding our merger they were the obvious choice for this post.

One other thing, with 147 guys on furlough I have seen 3 straight open time pickups on the 757/767 in the last week. There are always extenuating circumstances but they surely don't apply most of the time. This 'screw you I got mine' attitude is a death sentence for any organization, us included.

My point exactly....be proactive and don't rely on ANY job for your financial security!!!!

If you want ideas, send me an email....

 

[Flopgut]

No I don't disagree. None of us deserves this ride we are on.

And no one deserves any less help than another. So get ready to help out the bottom half of the list. There is a long way to go before it's even close to being comparable.

 

[CitationLover]

edited

 

[CitationLover]

Nice uneducated jab....When will the left start taking blame? the market was at about 12500 when Harry and Nancy took over congress....the market trades on EXPECTATIONS. It trades on what you think will happen in the future, not on what has happened. The higher Barry's poll numbers, the more the market tanked....since Barry was elected, the market is down about 2000 points.

I never thought we'd see pure stupidity in this country again like we saw under FDR. I saw it in Venezuala, but never thought it would be here again...I was wrong.....you'll still be blaiming Bush in 4 years when the deficits are nearly a trillion and your pension is gone (as well as your 401K...)

Uneducated? Well you can call me all the names you want, I am stating facts here re: defined benefit pensions.

How can you blame a management team for a DB portfolio loss when EVERYONE'S portfolio is losing. I agree airline management are in general buffoons, however the anger is misplaced here.

I am far from "left". About 180 degrees. Once you "republicans" who voted for Bush (that republican who massively increased government, massively increased entitlement programs, invaded a foreign country, etc. - he fooled me once, not twice). Barry Goldwater is spinning in his grave at what you label the "right". The religious fanatics are finally out of power.