Ground the Q400

[GearUpJammer]

Just for clarification, AE brought the ATR's back North. The factors in the Roselawn accident are well documented. As a side note, Command Airways of Poughkeepsee,NY was the launch customer of the ATR in the US. Command and Nashville Eagle merged to form Flagship Airlines/AE. Flagship had a very good safety record flying the ATR in the Northeast.

 

[say again]

Flyprdu is an IDIOT!!!!! I think you're the one that should be grounded, seriously.

 

[CALRepublic]

Ground the Q-400.....This thread is pissing me off so much I don't even want to read anymore... Thread starter, what airplane do you fly?? that bird ever been involved in an accident?? how about we ground that one as well........

Hey flyprd, what's your background and experience??? what do you fly and for how long?? if you think you're going to impress me because you went to purdue you're out of your f****ng mind........

 

[atrdriver]

Just so I get my facts straight, I should've said ATR 72. What did COEX have, 3 of them?
Atlantic Southeast Airlines, operated ATR-72 aircraft in areas where icing conditions were not common."

or

"After a period of mandatory grounding, American Eagle and Delta Connection permanently stopped using the plane on temperate routes."

What else would you like Alice?

For you to get your facts straight. After the boots were redesigned (extended back) there was nothing wrong with the ATR, and in fact it became the most tested airframe in icing conditions in FAA history. ASA operated them out of CVG for 2 winters, and I wouldn't say that isn't an area prone to icing, nor would I call it a temperate area.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Sometimes....."Freedom Of Speech" is over rated....

 

[Metrojet]

Regardless of the aircraft you fly, here's a free course from NASA about icing. It might be a good idea for all of us to take it.

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses_inflight.html#

Erlanger:

Thank you for that link - it looks very good - and everyone can learn from it - no matter what you fly.

Metrojet

 

[Publishers]

First, we do not even know if the boots and systems worked correctly.
Secondly, somewhere in reporting it mentioned that the crew was noticing this at 11,000 feet. We do not know whether they discussed any actions at this time.
Thirdly, how many times is it the aircraft? Not many.
This is sad but early judgment does not help.

 

[Paladin]

Just so I get my facts straight, I should've said ATR 72. What did COEX have, 3 of them?

How's this,
"In the years following this accident, AMR Corporation stopped using its American Eagle ATRs out of its northern hubs and moved them to their southern and Caribbean hubs in Dallas, Texas; Miami, Florida and San Juan, Puerto Rico to alleviate potential icing problems in the future. Other U.S. former ATR operators, particularly the SkyWest, Inc. subsidiary and Delta Connection operator Atlantic Southeast Airlines, operated ATR-72 aircraft in areas where icing conditions were not common."

or

"After a period of mandatory grounding, American Eagle and Delta Connection permanently stopped using the plane on temperate routes."

What else would you like Alice?

Still incorrect buddy...ASA operated the ATR-72 out of CVG to places like CAK and LEX not so many years ago. Ice isn't common in Akron?? Sure was when I lived there. You stated that the ATR was "KICKED OUT" up north. There is a big difference between being BANNED (i.e Kicked out) and VOLUNTARILY MOVED...albeit temporarily.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

You two are like two bickering kids in the back seat. Give it a rest.

 

[NEDude]

And Airbusses...their composite tails snap off in light wake turbulence.

Refering to American flight 587.

The tail did not snap off of "light wake turbulence" The tail snapped off after the F/O, complying with American Airlines flawed training program, agressively used full scale deflections of the rudder to counter the wake turbulence encounter. Aircraft are not required to, nor are they designed to be able to withstand full scale rudder deflections at all speeds.

There has been long debate about whether Airbus or American is to blame here, but four years before the accident, the FAA, Boeing, McDonnell Douglas and Airbus sent a letter to American Airlines warning them that rudders should not be used abruptly to right a jet aircraft.

Additionally in 1997 after and incident with AA flight 903 in Miami, Airbus warned American that abrupt use of the rudder could lead to loss of aircraft control and aircraft damage.

The fact is that Airbus met the design criteria for an aircraft being certified, And American Airlines was warned multiple times by not only Airbus, but the FAA and other manufacturers that their training program was flawed. And if the FO did not apply rapid, full scale rudder deflections, in accordance with the flawed training program, there would have been no crash.

 

[G-force]

Low & Slow !!!!!

]If what people are saying is true, then this airplane is unsafe and needs to be grounded immediately.[/quote

]

Hey dude,isn't this a bit of a drastic action that you are in favor of???This aircraft,(Dash-8Q400). had a good record up until now!!
Perhaps the problem lies with TRAINING & PROCEDURES???

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

 

[ReverseSensing]

One of my good friends actually works at Colgan and has relayed the fact that Asymmetrical flap extension has been listed as a probable cause of the accident.

I've flown the Q400 for 2 years now in some pretty heavy ice. It always seemed like it carried ice very well and I was never particularly concerned about its manners or handling in icing conditions. In the first minutes after I heard about this accident, when the speculation started that it might have been caused by icing in general, and a tail plane stall in particular, I thought, "no way."

This accident and the insinuations that the NTSB is spreading, I'll admit, have shaken my confidence a bit. If the departure from controlled flight happened as flaps were selected to 15 (versus 35) as the NTSB has said, I'm even more baffled. 5 to 15 just isn't that big a pitch change in the 400 and happens pretty slowly. 15 to 35 happens very rapidly and is accompanied by massive pitch changes, especially if done right at or below the flaps 35 Vfe.

The flap system, on the other hand, is pretty finicky and I could see (having just reviewed the system) how an electronic malfunction of the flap control unit might allow an uncorrectable asymmetry condition. Problem is that on the Q400, once you get a flap power or a flap drive caution, you often can't move the flaps from the position they are in when the caution occurs.

Rest in peace, crew and pax of Colgan 3407. May your families, friends, and coworkers find some solace in this very difficult time.

 

[BoilerUP]

Refering to American flight 587.

How DARE you ruin my hyperbole with facts...

 

[Dubya]

Must have missed that class in prdu....

Longer plane is better in ice. Tail has a longer arm making the moment force greater. Plus the tail is father away from the wings downwash..

Aerodynamic BURN!!!:angryfire

Perhaps the first aerodynamic burn in history?

I believe FI should shut down for a time (moment of posting silence) in honor of our fallen crew mates.

So sad, so tragic, and all we can do is bicker and point fingers.



W

 

[ReverseSensing]

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

Who says they were? You're really no better than the person you are complaining about by insinuating that the crew might have gotten low and slow on approach.

 

[172driver]

Hey dude,isn't this a bit of a drastic action that you are in favor of???This aircraft,(Dash-8Q400). had a good record up until now!!
Perhaps the problem lies with TRAINING & PROCEDURES???

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

And if you knew anything, you would know that the faster you go, the closer you are to a tailplane stall. Extra speed is bad news with ice on the tail.

 

[captain007]

My thoughts go out to the families involved in this horrible accident.

If it is a tail stall that occured, recovery at low altitudes is almost impossible. The Beech Jet has a problem with tail stalls and at netjets we see them every 6 months in training. Pulling back on the yoke, pulling the flaps up, and decreasing thrust (until control is back), is the recovery methods I have been shown. This is a violent act and very difficult to handle.

We will have to wait to see what the NTSB rules as the cause.

Once again this is a sad event in aviation and I wish the best to the families involved.

 

[say again]

Originally Posted by Flyprdu...
You're just a f*ckin idiot. Period.
There should be a minimum IQ required to start a thread.



This coming from the moron that started this thread. You are the f***ckin' idiot. Period.uke:

 

[CheeseDick]

the beechjet had huge tail stall issues.

the heat on it still sucks, but at least you get to try tail stalling in the sim

it still flies

edit: i should've looked two posts above mine. or maybe read the thread first

 

[boilerflyer]

Can someone who flies/flew the Q400 describe the de-icing system on that aircraft? Are there boots on the H and V Stab? Is it automatic? Is there an ice-detection system?

Thanks.