Comair to furlough another 120 pilots

[JoeMerchant]

Well, it goes to show that there are skeletons in everyone's closet. We can only strive to learn something from our mistakes and to do better next time.

What happens when "doing better" for the profession and "doing better" for number 1 conflict? Number 1 will always trump the "whole" unless you create a true national union with lateral movement.....

 

[NEWSOUTH]

I agree we that. I was just amazed how quickly Comair's reputation was changed so quickly to elite status shortly after the strike. Comair became the best regional in the industry. Yet, they seem to have been the front runner in a PFT game that was quickly forgotten. That surprised me. That was my point.
I did not PFT. I had my chance with Comair in 1991. I said no. That was my choice. Right or wrong. I flew 135 instead. PCL dropped PFT before I got there, as long as you had several(?) thousand hours. I'm not saying I have a problem with PFT. Just could not figure out, at the time, how a regional could kill their dark horse so quickly. It shocked me and at the same time I was impressed.

 

[N813CA]

I never paid for PFT. I left UND went to Piedmont and then came to Comair. The only reason I came here was I wanted a place to make a good living during the down time at the majors, and yeah it sucks. We have been screwed ever since. I personally hate Mesa,Chataqwhatever, and Big Scare. So be it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree we that. I was just amazed how quickly Comair's reputation was changed so quickly to elite status shortly after the strike. Comair became the best regional in the industry. Yet, they seem to have been the front runner in a PFT game that was quickly forgotten. That surprised me. That was my point.
I did not PFT. I had my chance with Comair in 1991. I said no. That was my choice. Right or wrong. I flew 135 instead. PCL dropped PFT before I got there, as long as you had several(?) thousand hours. I'm not saying I have a problem with PFT. Just could not figure out, at the time, how a regional could kill their dark horse so quickly. It shocked me and at the same time I was impressed.

The problem is this industry doesn't reward anyone for making the "right" decision.....I refused to do PFT initially...No reward.....You refused to do PFT at all.....No reward.....The CMR pilots went on strike for 89 days.....There reward as one of the highest cost carriers and the only regional to strike....is to have their flying transferred to other ALPA regionals like ASA, PNCL, and Mesaba.....

No single pilot or pilot group can solve this mess.....Only a true national union with brand scope and a sympathetic mainline group can reverse the trend.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I never paid for PFT. I left UND went to Piedmont and then came to Comair. The only reason I came here was I wanted a place to make a good living during the down time at the majors, and yeah it sucks. We have been screwed ever since. I personally hate Mesa,Chataqwhatever, and Big Scare. So be it.

In essence...anyone who goes to the "regionals" only to one day go to the "majors" is participating in PFT......There really shouldn't be a "regional" or "major".....

 

[N813CA]

JoeMerchant vbmenu_register("postmenu_1710159", true);

I agree. I would love to be at a major airline. They are all worse than we are at Furloughs.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

Can't debate that staement. Only wish I could fix it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Can't debate that staement. Only wish I could fix it.

You can't fix it...I can't fix it....

WE can fix it if it WE decide to hold our union accountable....It would require threatening it to the point of extinction.....That is the ONLY way that ALPA will change....

IF the regional pilots started a serious decertification movement and joined together....you might see some movement at the national and mainline level that would fix this problem......

The problem is that it requires standing up to the union and to the mainline pilots....most regional pilots don't want to do that.....

 

[Ridgeback]

I never paid for PFT. I left UND went to Piedmont and then came to Comair.

UND is the BIGGEST example of pay for training, unless of coure you intend to use that aviation sciences degree, or what ever you call it....

 

[Simon Says]

V-1 and Simon - too bad the facts will ALWAYS be lost on the masses.

Best of luck to all of those at Comair.

Ahhh, OK....the sarcasm was lost in the post. Now I read it the way it was intended to be read. I know you are an XJ guy, and if I only saw that before hand I would of got your sarcasm.

 

[Simon Says]

I seem to remember some pretty significant concessions to secure the Avro's. The offending document was called LOA-15 and it didn't hide the fact that your FO's were sold down the river for the promise of some big shiny jets. Those Avro's were direct replacement for Northwest DC-9-10's.

OK, good point on LOA 15.

You have been around for quite some time and I know you know your facts, but I could argue just as good aurgument that the Avro was let on property by the NWA guys via their 69 seat scope, that the Avro did not replace some DC-9 flying and so on.

But with that said Doin Time, I can also aurgue the opposing view pretty well also. But that aurgument would not entail selling the FO down the river. What it entails is that we would have been undercutting other carriers for their flying.

 

[Simon Says]

2 points to touch on in this thread.

First, I cannot believe we are all being adults in this conversation. This has got to be the first F.I. thread on a heated topic of "transfer of flying" and all parties are being mature adults. Congratulations on us all.

Second, Comair PFT has slipped my mind. You guys are right that memories are short. I have been around since 98 and for the life of me remember Comair being PFT. Can someone remind me of the details.

 

[DoinTime]

OK, good point on LOA 15.

You have been around for quite some time and I know you know your facts, but I could argue just as good aurgument that the Avro was let on property by the NWA guys via their 69 seat scope, that the Avro did not replace some DC-9 flying and so on.

I don't recall exactly what went down with the NW pilots on this issue but I believe the Avro's fit a loophole or that they did not have that sector of flying scoped (hence part of the need for the '98 mainline strike). The Avro's were not something that was pre-agreed upon but rather something that was shoved up the mainline pilots asses. As a result of them already being on property they were grandfathered in during subsequent negotiations.

But with that said Doin Time, I can also aurgue the opposing view pretty well also. But that aurgument would not entail selling the FO down the river. What it entails is that we would have been undercutting other carriers for their flying.

If there was no competition for those aircraft then why the need for the concessions? Facts are that both XJ and 9E were being considered for operating the Avro. Likewise, NW was also planning on buying Saab 2000's. When it all shook out XJ was selected to operate the Avro and 9E was selected to fly the Saab 2000 (we were the North American launch customer). As the RJ revolution swept America in the late 90's the plans for the big Saab were ditched and 9E became the CRJ operator for NW.

 

[acarpe3448]

You know what's going to tick you off even more! I work with furloghed Delta mechs here at Comair, and they weren't required to give up their seniority numbers!

Of course not! The Comair mechanics were not trying to take away the Delta mechanic's jobs. Comair pilots saw the opportunity post 911! Delta was hurting, losing money, and parking airplanes and furloughing pilots. The Comair pilots looked to block Comair from hiring our pilots unless we resigned our senority numbers. Their MEC drafted a letter that said that the Comair pilots felt their would be a "safety issue" by hiring our pilots unless we resigned our senority numbers. However, the letter went on to say that if Delta eliminated their scope provisions that then it would be safe to hire our pilots. ASA pilots chose to not do this! Then there was the RJDC that filed suit for millions and millions of dollars saying that we were hindering their careers with our scope language. This at a time when Comair was growing, getting bigger planes, and more and more planes. Crews upgraded to bigger aircraft, made more money, had more senority and enjoyed better quality of life. While over a thousand of our pilots were on the street. What comes around goes around! This is just my opinion, but I hope they go out of business! I am sure there are some great guys and gals piloting there and I hate it for them! But all in all it's great news to be growing other Delta Connection Carriers and shrinking them! It's about time! Take care man!

 

[bob_sakamano]

You know what's going to tick you off even more! I work with furloghed Delta mechs here at Comair, and they weren't required to give up their seniority numbers!

Bubba -

When Acrap get's furloughed from the New Delta (I bet thousands are coming), will you help him get a job with all of his good friends at Comair?

 

[acarpe3448]

Bubba -

When Acrap get's furloughed from the New Delta (I bet thousands are coming), will you help him get a job with all of his good friends at Comair?

Regional Pilots Are Unsafe?

Published by Dan Webb
on June 28, 2008
in Industrywide
.

Note: This is an article that was written before I went on vacation that my good friend Jon Heckman graciously offered to post for me. I will return to normal posting on June 29.

…at least they are according to Joe Brancatelli of Conde Nast Portfolio. His article was written recently after the Southwest safety issue, and he does make a few points that are worth arguing. But this last bit annoyed me:

One more thing to worry about: Pilot pay has been slashed so drastically that airlines can’t find qualified candidates to fly commuter aircraft, the entry-level flying job. With pay for commuter flights starting not far above minimum wage (some pilots have left to drive trucks), airlines are hiring pilots with as little as 500 hours of flight experience. That’s about half the old minimum requirement.​

The claim that the pilots are commuter aircraft aren’t qualified is especially annoying. I know a few people studying at places like Embry Riddle. Recent college graduates often fly the smaller aircraft. These students are quite prepared by their instructors and are, if anything, over-qualified for their jobs in my opinion.
Also, the requirements have changed as technology has changed. GPS units have made navigation much more accurate. the introduction of TCAS units into more and more aircraft mean that pilots can more esaily monitor the air traffic around them. Also, simulators that can be customized for special situations are more common in training.
He is right that the pay at first is pretty horrible, though. But it does improve over time, especially when one makes the leap to mainline aircraft.
So I’d have to say that the pilots on the regional airlines, even if they’re young and fresh out of school, are qualified for their jobs and are perfectly safe pilots.



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3 Responses to “Regional Pilots Are Unsafe?”

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1. <LI class=" t1 c-y2008 c-m06 c-d28 c-h12 alt" id=comment-65>
   
   1 Oliver June 28, 2008 at 12:48 pm
   If you had to have major surgery (think open heart surgery), would you want that done by someone who recently graduated from an awesome medical school and residency program, but has done only a few months “on the job”, or would you want a surgeon who has done the same type of surgery many times?
   In perfect flying conditions, those recent graduates with 500 hours of flying experience are probably completely safe. And even if things get hairy, they probably aren’t exactly bad. But I’d still prefer some 40-50 year old pilot who has “seen it all before”.
   YMMV.
   
   <LI class=" t2 c-y2008 c-m06 c-d28 c-h16" id=comment-66>
   
   2 Dan Webb June 28, 2008 at 4:53 pm
   Oliver, you do have a very good point. Experience does count for sure. I just think the original article exaggerated a bit.
   Either way, pilots have to start somewhere to get that experience. And one other point - the recent graduates start in the right seat with the regional airlines - it takes a little bit to move over to the left.
   Thanks for commenting!
2. 
   3 Oliver June 29, 2008 at 7:55 pm
   Agreed, just like physicians (or for that matter, newly licensed car drivers), young pilots have to start somewhere. And I do fly regional airliners on occasions and don’t exactly fear for my life every minute of the flight
   

 

[acarpe3448]

Bubba -

When Acrap get's furloughed from the New Delta (I bet thousands are coming), will you help him get a job with all of his good friends at Comair?

If it's several thousand furloughs, I'll be safe. Thanks for your concern!!!!! Get back to your Barbie Jet



GO TEXAS TECH!!!!!!

 

[Seaknight1]

Of course not! The Comair mechanics were not trying to take away the Delta mechanic's jobs. Comair pilots saw the opportunity post 911! Delta was hurting, losing money, and parking airplanes and furloughing pilots. The Comair pilots looked to block Comair from hiring our pilots unless we resigned our senority numbers. Their MEC drafted a letter that said that the Comair pilots felt their would be a "safety issue" by hiring our pilots unless we resigned our senority numbers. However, the letter went on to say that if Delta eliminated their scope provisions that then it would be safe to hire our pilots. ASA pilots chose to not do this! Then there was the RJDC that filed suit for millions and millions of dollars saying that we were hindering their careers with our scope language. This at a time when Comair was growing, getting bigger planes, and more and more planes. Crews upgraded to bigger aircraft, made more money, had more senority and enjoyed better quality of life. While over a thousand of our pilots were on the street. What comes around goes around! This is just my opinion, but I hope they go out of business! I am sure there are some great guys and gals piloting there and I hate it for them! But all in all it's great news to be growing other Delta Connection Carriers and shrinking them! It's about time! Take care man!

Yeah I totally disagree with what JC Lawson did. He's a pretty douchy guy to do what he did. It sucks that the new guys here, have to pay for his douchiness! You just might get your wish the way things are going here. I have several friends that are Delta pilots and I know where you're coming from. You fly the ER? FO or CA? I got a buddy who's ER FO out of JFK. He was aslo on the mad dog 88/90.

 

[acarpe3448]

Yeah I totally disagree with what JC Lawson did. He's a pretty douchy guy to do what he did. It sucks that the new guys here, have to pay for his douchiness! You just might get your wish the way things are going here. I have several friends that are Delta pilots and I know where you're coming from. You fly the ER? FO or CA? I got a buddy who's ER FO out of JFK. He was aslo on the mad dog 88/90.

Im an FO on the ER out of Atl! Its a pleasure talking with you! What is your story? Are you coming back to Delta? We would love to have you back ASAP! Take Care my Friend!

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Delta pilots wanted to be "separate".....Therefor they are no different than any other pilot group.....If you want to work for CMR....you need to resign your seniority number....Either comply with the requirements or go to work somewhere else.....

You can't have it both ways.....Either we are one group or we are separate....If we are separate than you need to apply and meet the company requirements......