Sundries on the Jet: The next threat

[brainhurts]

Yet YOU are trying to have a say in the business operation.....You are contradicting your own message.....Take your own advice and let them charge for "extras"....More revenue is a good thing....except to you socialists.....

BINGO. It seems that Obama's seeming success with no experience and a marxist plan has fired the imagination of our young friend Rez. Rez believes that if he just uses big words and talks alot, people will be impressed and vote him into higher ALPA positions. I see a politician in the makings!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think he slipped a cog. He was ranting about how Rabbi's hate their brothers on another thread. Sleeping pills and alcohol? Were just not sure yet, but we're not ruling it out.

He's definately losing it.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

BINGO. It seems that Obama's seeming success with no experience and a marxist plan has fired the imagination of our young friend Rez. Rez believes that if he just uses big words and talks alot, people will be impressed and vote him into higher ALPA positions. I see a politician in the makings!!

I wonder if Rez would support a "redistribution of wealth" within ALPA? How about we tax the top end and give it to first year regional FOs....Wouldn't that be "fair".....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yet YOU are trying to have a say in the business operation.....You are contradicting your own message.....Take your own advice and let them charge for "extras"....More revenue is a good thing....except to you socialists.....

No I am not... as usual you can't comprehend and you look for the rare event and try and make it sound like common occurrence.....

All I am advocating is this thread is that pilots understand how the dynamic is changing..... and how to consider approaching management at the negotiating table when the dynamics of the market have changed....

Or do you think in a airline environment where most of a n airlines profits are made from on board sales and charging for luggage that pilots should negotiate from a 1970's airline business model? Well?

I wonder if Rez would support a "redistribution of wealth" within ALPA? How about we tax the top end and give it to first year regional FOs....Wouldn't that be "fair".....

This is what the RJDC was all about and your silly lawsuit that failed miserably...

How is that committee of UAL and NWA mainline pilots doing that are looking our for RJDC interests?


Well?

 

[brainhurts]

I wonder if Rez would support a "redistribution of wealth" within ALPA? How about we tax the top end and give it to first year regional FOs....Wouldn't that be "fair".....

Uh, is he really flying an airplane at your company? His answer to your question reads like a herion addict's withdraw pains.

 

[enigma]

Nice.... but I maintain it is a threat.....

And you mentioned Ryan Air in Europe...

Now I've heard that some pilots think Ryan Air is a good place to work.. an opportunity perhaps for US pilots looking for work....


Ryan Air sells incredibly cheap tickets. O'leary makes his money selling ancillary services and products like wheelchair requests, food, products, baggage, etc...

Ryan Air is a transnational airline. It has operating certificates in one country and labor based in a different country. So it finds the country with cheapest laws for its certificate and labor.

Imagine as a US pilot flying for a Mexican airline that has an operating certificate from Trinidad/Tabago and a crew base in Aruba. What labor law do you fall under? As a US pilot can you image trying to enforce gov't law or a union contract in Aruba? Or is it Trinidad because that is where the certificate is.. or is it Mexico because that is where the corporate headquarters is....


Back to the main issue.....


First.... Ryan treats its pilots like Mesa does. The Ryan/Mesa model is what the global start ups are copying... not SWA...... Many pilots at Ryan air are "indentured Servants" because they are so deep in debt.. they can't afford to quit working and look for another 'career'.... Sound familiar Mr. Regional Jet Pilot?


But just as important... since Ryan Air and now other airlines are making money from ancillary sales... the airline ticket is not the primary revenue source....

If you think airline management doesn't give a damm about us now... wait till we are no longer the primary generator of revenue.... How will management view all the cost of safety, training, mx, etc when they realize that there is no money there... They will want to dump money into marketing schemes to sell stuff..

Of course one has to consider how management thinks... not how we think....

Rez, If the RyanAir model was looked upon as being the way to go by US airline ownership and management, Spirit would be growing by leaps and bounds instead of shrinking/furloughing.

Spirit essentially started the current US movement to charge for everything and to sell advertising inside the airplane. At the moment, Spirit's future is very much in doubt because of our inability to attract the investment capitol necessary for continued operation and growth. Obviously the money men don't think much of our business model.

How do you explain this apparent conflict?

 

[Soverytired]

I think the most simplistic answer for why the RyanAir model works in Europe, but not so well at places like Skybus and Spirit in the US is this:

RyanAir got started in a low-cost carrier vacuum in Europe, and espanded rapidly. Skybus/Spirit had plenty of competition with existing legacies, not to mention the behemoth that is SWA.

I think it's apples and oranges, really. Places like AA, DAL, USAir can't switch to the RyanAir model, but they can adopt some of their ideas to try and make additional revenue.

Frankly, who cares where the $$$ is coming from, as long as it's for "my" airline. The pie has to grow before we can share it. It's not like I have to deal with an irate passenger because they just paid $50 bucks to check a bag . . that's a cost/benefit decision that management must weigh.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, If the RyanAir model was looked upon as being the way to go by US airline ownership and management, Spirit would be growing by leaps and bounds instead of shrinking/furloughing.

Spirit essentially started the current US movement to charge for everything and to sell advertising inside the airplane. At the moment, Spirit's future is very much in doubt because of our inability to attract the investment capitol necessary for continued operation and growth. Obviously the money men don't think much of our business model.

How do you explain this apparent conflict?

Spirit is not a transnational airline like Ryan Air. From a business viewpoint Spirit is shackled by US laws: labor, FARs, the RLA, investment laws, owenrship, etc...

If Spirit could get a operating certificate in the Caymen Islands, crews from Mexico, and crew bases in Cuba.... (or any given mix..... or countries...).


It is like the maritime industry... how does a landlocked country offer ship registry? (luxemburg)

 

[Freight Dog]

If Spirit could get a operating certificate in the Caymen Islands, crews from Mexico, and crew bases in Cuba.... (or any given mix..... or countries...).

Rez, don't you think that we are the proverbial Mexicans/Chinese of the airline world with our ridiculously low pay all the way around?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, don't you think that we are the proverbial Mexicans/Chinese of the airline world with our ridiculously low pay all the way around?

Yes. However, everything is relative. No matter how bad ones situation is.... it can probably get worse..

 

[Freight Dog]

Yes. However, everything is relative. No matter how bad ones situation is.... it can probably get worse..

Yeah, and it can get better too... Realistically, how can things get worse in this country? This was a great profession once...

Here's another question for you... how do you stop an exodus of experience pilots from this industry/nation? Does that concern you?

Why is it necessary for our experienced pilots to seek jobs in places like China or India or stay in this country and qualify for food stamps?

Frankly, I think ALPA, along with ludicrous pay scale structures and shameful payscales chaining us to our airlines are by far bigger threats to our profession than foreign ownership.

 

[Captzaahlie]

You can leave in those examples. On an airplane in flight, you are stuck.

The airlines historically offered soft drinks and checked bags as part of the ticket price. It was part of "the service".

They have forgotten service, and made themselves into a commodity. I remember when I was a kid, my Dad would book on TWA, or we drove. That was it. Now America goes for the lowest bidder and complains about the crappy service.

Nickel and Dimeing your customers is NO WAY to gain customer loyalty.

yeah, on a cruise ship you can just jump off if you don't like it!

I can't stand the credit card announcements and tray table advertisements either.....

ok i feel better now!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah, and it can get better too... Realistically, how can things get worse in this country? This was a great profession once...

Allot worse. Look at the maritime industry.

For us... foreign companies using foreign pilots to fly US passengers on foreign registered jets.

What do you value? Is it the US Air Line Pilot Profession?

Here's another question for you... how do you stop an exodus of experience pilots from this industry/nation? Does that concern you?

If you mean US pilots leaving to go work for foreign carriers like Emirates... that will stop relatively quickly...

What won't stop is lobby efforts to get the DHS and ICE to allow foreign pilots to come to the US to fly our jets.

Do you really think that corporations views us differently than any other labor. We are no different that lettuce pickers in the minds of CEOs.

Why is it necessary for our experienced pilots to seek jobs in places like China or India or stay in this country and qualify for food stamps?

Again... value. What do you value? Do you value this pilot profession? Do you hope someone else values this profession so you don't have to?

Before airplanes, the proud job was a merchant marine. Moving cargo across the oceans. That career has been sold out by Americans. the only US ships are those within the US boarders.


No one values the Air Line Pilot Profession as much as you and I..... only air line pilots will protect it.

Frankly, I think ALPA, along with ludicrous pay scale structures and shameful payscales chaining us to our airlines are by far bigger threats to our profession than foreign ownership.

I agree... and since we agree....lets do something!

 

[Freight Dog]

Allot worse. Look at the maritime industry.

Funny you should mention it. A friend of ours is an engineer on a ship... makes a killing. Should he change jobs within his industry, he won't go back to poverty as a result of it.

For us... foreign companies using foreign pilots to fly US passengers on foreign registered jets.

Hey, if they pay $65k for a regional jet FO and 100k for a captain and allow U.S. pilots to compete for those jobs.... what's wrong with it?

What do you value? Is it the US Air Line Pilot Profession?

[sarcasm]
I value it as much as Air Line Pilots Association values it. $23/hour regardless of your experience. [/sarcasm]

If you mean US pilots leaving to go work for foreign carriers like Emirates... that will stop relatively quickly...

I don't know... a lot of Aloha/ATA guys went to Emirates, many others before then. When is it gonna stop? When they have enough pilots....

What won't stop is lobby efforts to get the DHS and ICE to allow foreign pilots to come to the US to fly our jets.

Great!!!!!! LET THEM!!!! LET US GO THERE TOO!!! I don't think you'll see too many of them lining up here when they see what we offer. Did you know that an entry-level Q400 FO with 200 hours for Croatia Airlines makes 2000 euro per month and is considered grossly underpaid? Nevermind that the cost of living in Croatia is significantly less than here. UNDERPAID

Do you really think that corporations views us differently than any other labor. We are no different that lettuce pickers in the minds of CEOs.

Why should they view us any differently? Look at what we do to ourselves... We enable that look through our own system.

Again... value. What do you value? Do you value this pilot profession? Do you hope someone else values this profession so you don't have to?

Rez... if you value the current pilot profession in this country, you are a sick man!

Yes. Let's do something about it... let's abolish seniority-based payscales for starters. Captain job is worth x amount. FO job is worth y amount. Why was I making $94/hour flying a 737-700 and the flight back, we had a UAL furloughee with way more time and experience in type than me make only $30?

Start by addressing that...

 

[Captzaahlie]

Funny you should mention it. A friend of ours is an engineer on a ship... makes a killing. Should he change jobs within his industry, he won't go back to poverty as a result of it.



Hey, if they pay $65k for a regional jet FO and 100k for a captain and allow U.S. pilots to compete for those jobs.... what's wrong with it?



[sarcasm]
I value it as much as Air Line Pilots Association values it. $23/hour regardless of your experience. [/sarcasm]




I don't know... a lot of Aloha/ATA guys went to Emirates, many others before then. When is it gonna stop? When they have enough pilots....



Great!!!!!! LET THEM!!!! LET US GO THERE TOO!!! I don't think you'll see too many of them lining up here when they see what we offer. Did you know that an entry-level Q400 FO with 200 hours for Croatia Airlines makes 2000 euro per month and is considered grossly underpaid? Nevermind that the cost of living in Croatia is significantly less than here. UNDERPAID



Why should they view us any differently? Look at what we do to ourselves... We enable that look through our own system.




Rez... if you value the current pilot profession in this country, you are a sick man!

Yes. Let's do something about it... let's abolish seniority-based payscales for starters. Captain job is worth x amount. FO job is worth y amount. Why was I making $94/hour flying a 737-700 and the flight back, we had a UAL furloughee with way more time and experience in type than me make only $30?

Start by addressing that...

YES,
a very good place to start.........

 

[knightflyer]

........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Funny you should mention it. A friend of ours is an engineer on a ship... makes a killing. Should he change jobs within his industry, he won't go back to poverty as a result of it.

So you are advocating that we pilots are only allowed to fly within CONUS? and all border crossing flights will be flown by foreigners?

Hey, if they pay $65k for a regional jet FO and 100k for a captain and allow U.S. pilots to compete for those jobs.... what's wrong with it?

They won't. They will pay allot less. that is the whole point. pay poor wages. Who will work for poor wages? Poor foreigners... for whom the pay isn't poor... but it is poor to you and I so we won't do it...

[sarcasm]
I value it as much as Air Line Pilots Association values it. $23/hour regardless of your experience. [/sarcasm]

sarcasm is cute on FI. When you want to get serious... man up.

I don't know... a lot of Aloha/ATA guys went to Emirates, many others before then. When is it gonna stop? When they have enough pilots....

Less than five years.

Great!!!!!! LET THEM!!!! LET US GO THERE TOO!!! I don't think you'll see too many of them lining up here when they see what we offer. Did you know that an entry-level Q400 FO with 200 hours for Croatia Airlines makes 2000 euro per month and is considered grossly underpaid? Nevermind that the cost of living in Croatia is significantly less than here. UNDERPAID

I am not talking about Croatia. I am talking third world countries....

Look the data and trends are out there... instead of trying to prove me wrong.. seek out the information yourself and come to your own conclusions...

Why should they view us any differently? Look at what we do to ourselves... We enable that look through our own system.

Fair enough. What should we do about it...

Rez... if you value the current pilot profession in this country, you are a sick man!

I value it more than where it is headed. And I value what I think it should be more than it is now...

Yes. Let's do something about it... let's abolish seniority-based payscales for starters. Captain job is worth x amount. FO job is worth y amount. Why was I making $94/hour flying a 737-700 and the flight back, we had a UAL furloughee with way more time and experience in type than me make only $30?

I don't think we should abolish sen based pay scales but I think we should flatten them....

But that is on your interests... if you want to abolish them, then they way to do that is by flattening them....

Start by addressing that...

not me.... we....