Contract expat FO---type rating?

[kingsize]

How do people getting hired on as contract FOs get type rated? Looking at Rishworth and Parc, FOs need to have a type rating, but with only 100-500 hours on type.

How would anyone have such little time on a 777 or 320, yet be able to apply for a contract job?

Are these guys applying for FO jobs paying for a type rating and 500 hours out of pocket? That would cost a fortune.

As someone looking at overseas options, what would be the best way to get the type rating and the minimal required time (500 hours or so on type)? Is there some secret I'm not aware of?

 

[Kenny]

The majority of the rest of the world requires FO's to be typed.

It was only after the Canadians kicked up a stink and I think the French threatened to impound an aircraft due to the crew not being properly licensed, that the FAA started the whole SIC thing.

 

[vtwo]

you will see that in some europe country's that FO's can get what is called a "frozen ATPL". with as little as 200 or 300 hours total pilot time. then the buy a type rating in an A320 along with 500 hrs line experience from some airline with the hope of a real job after that. So they get an airline job as 320 fo with 700 hours total time.
Yes you to can buy your self a pretty airline job for $50,000. dollars.
like it or not that is what is happening.

 

[dojetdriver]

How do people getting hired on as contract FOs get type rated? Looking at Rishworth and Parc, FOs need to have a type rating, but with only 100-500 hours on type.

For Rishworth, if you are thinking about Korean, they will want you to fund the type. They will also tell you that it does not guaranty a "successful screening."

How would anyone have such little time on a 777 or 320, yet be able to apply for a contract job?

Just a guess, those that have the time on type were probably lucky enough to get hired at some lower tier carrier with little experience. That carrier either has fallen by the wayside or the pilot is now looking to leave that carrier. Happens all the time, not just in the U.S.

Are these guys applying for FO jobs paying for a type rating and 500 hours out of pocket? That would cost a fortune.

As someone looking at overseas options, what would be the best way to get the type rating and the minimal required time (500 hours or so on type)? Is there some secret I'm not aware of?

Just another guess, but I think many of the guys that are applying for the contract jobs are the ones I talked about above, OR are ALREADY on a contract that may be expiring and are looking to move on to a better/more lucrative contract.

I've applied for two contract jobs. One was at one time one of the BEST contract jobs out there, the other not so much. It seems like there is a pretty common theme with the better contract jobs. You have to be pretty dang qualified and or connected to get it.

By qualified, I mean having a decent amount of time on the SPECIFIC type of aircraft they operate, as well as PIC/COMMAND time on that type. Or, something very similar.

Typhoon may jump in here since he has actual experience with contract jobs.

 

[kingsize]

Ok, so if I need a 777 type rating with 500 hours on type, how do I get there?

1. Spend $50,000 (or way more?) getting a 777 type rating and paying for the 500 hours
2. Spend $20,000 getting a 777 type rating, then get hired on by a company to build 777 hours
3. Get hired by a company that will pay for my 777 type in exchange for a number of years of service (training bond?)

Those are pretty much the only options aren't they?

If I went with option 3, what company out there would pay to train me on the 777 then release me after only 500 hours?

PARC advertises 777 FO jobs, requiring only 500 hours on type---who has ONLY 500 hours on a 777, AND is not under contract with some other company?

dojetdriver, what carriers would let pilots go so early? I mean getting 500 hours would only take, what, 6-9 months?

Thanks for the inputs...just trying to figure out how to jump into the airline business next year without spending an arm and a leg, without lowering the bar for the industry, without signing a 5-year contract for a shady airline in an undesireable location, and without having a horrible quality of life while trying to build hours to upgrade to a better carrier.

 

[dojetdriver]

PARC advertises 777 FO jobs, requiring only 500 hours on type---who has ONLY 500 hours on a 777, AND is not under contract with some other company?

Bear in mind, those are minimums only. They can be cut/waived for a guy that may be a national of the country in which the airline is operating in. Also, not always the case, but not uncommon for a heavy/widebody pilot to not log all that much time in a year. May take some guys 18-24 months to get it. There are a few contracts that are that short in duration.

dojetdriver, what carriers would let pilots go so early? I mean getting 500 hours would only take, what, 6-9 months?

See above. Wide body/int'l vs. narrow/domestic can be two different animals as far as hours flown in a year. Also remember this, at a foreign carrier, a guy may have been hired as an IRO, RFO, Bunkee, Scribe, relief, cruise pilot where he may have had issues logging the time. THEN, he many have upgraded to actual FO status and gotten the required hours AND fullfilled a bond at the same time.

Thanks for the inputs...just trying to figure out how to jump into the airline business next year without spending an arm and a leg, without lowering the bar for the industry, without signing a 5-year contract for a shady airline in an undesireable location, and without having a horrible quality of life while trying to build hours to upgrade to a better carrier.

I haven't kept up with Cathay too much lately, but that may be an option when hiring picks up again. I believe there is more than one guy on here that transitioned to CX straight out of the military.

Also, just going by what your profile says. Most, if not all contract gigs require an "ICAO ATPL". Yes, an FAA ATP certificate qualifies. Also, many Asian contract jobs require you to be "command rated" on a two person jet aircraft. Meaning you have a type rating on your cert. It has more to do with the local governing regulatory agency than the employer.

And don't forget, when you jump in the airline market next year, it could 180 degrees different than it is now. What looks appealing today could be a big steaming pile of poo tomorrow.

 

[typhoonpilot]

How do people getting hired on as contract FOs get type rated? Looking at Rishworth and Parc, FOs need to have a type rating, but with only 100-500 hours on type. = I think you might be having a frame of reference problem. These job qualifications are not meant to be only for U.S. pilots. They are for pilots from all over the world. Many pilots from third world and second world countries are looking to leave to give their family a better quality of life. That includes getting a better paying job where commuting back home is involved or actually moving the whole family to another country. Those type of pilots are usually flying at a national carrier where they may have been cadet pilots from a very young age. They usually far exceed the minimum time on type requirements.

How would anyone have such little time on a 777 or 320, yet be able to apply for a contract job? See above

Are these guys applying for FO jobs paying for a type rating and 500 hours out of pocket? That would cost a fortune. = no, unless it is a 737NG or A320 job in Europe where employers often require a pilot to pay for their own type rating. Then it only entails the type rating. There are some programs that give time in type as well but those are not looked upon very favorably by the pilot population in general.

As someone looking at overseas options, what would be the best way to get the type rating and the minimal required time (500 hours or so on type)? Is there some secret I'm not aware of? There are some employers that will hire with no time on type. They are few and far between, but they do exist. Most likely it would be in the B737NG or A320. The better option though, is to get a contract job where you don't have to pay for anything. Better yet, a full time job where there is career progression to the left seat. The Japanese contracts offer that as do Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Etihad, Air Arabia, and a few others.


Realistically speaking though, you have very low total time so you may be looking at Cathay Pacific as a Second Officer as your best bet. If your total time comes up, and depending what type you are flying, Cathay Pacific as a Freighter F.O. may be possible.

A few of your USAF buddies have married
Aussie/Kiwis and have gone down there after retirement. You can find them both on Airline Pilot Central. They are low time and starting out in aviation down there where there seems to be some opportunity right now. [/quote]



Typhoonpilot

 

[fullsail]

King, if I understood your third question correctly, one such group of pilots will be the UAL "new-hires." Approx. 200 of them have the A320 type and probably less than 1000hrs total in type. Sadly, they will be looking for a new job very soon.

 

[Violet]

That's me! One of the recently hired, "summer help" for United. Just got furloughed last week. Was hired when fuel prices were higher than now, but no word whether we will ever be recalled. Thanks for the type, but due to conflicts, never got much time in the aircraft. Where else is there to look except overseas???

 

[kingsize]

Thanks for all the input. Typhoonpilot, it really is a frame of reference problem. I'm trying to learn this world as best I can before jumping in neck deep. The airline business is very competitive, complex, costly, and potentially life-disrupting.

It seems like jobs are not very merit based at all, but have a lot to do with knowing people and presenting yourself well. When people congratulae others for getting hired, it's almost like congratulating someone for winning bingo---just the luck of the draw. I know it's not totally like that, but it sure seems that way.

I like the thought of flying overseas, but with such a high cost of entry, and then so many drawbacks once one finally gets hired, I'm not sure it's all worth it. I've been in the military so long and am looking forward to getting out from under the thumb of the man, but it looks like I'd be walking right back into it again.

 

[Shrek]

Remember - they are wanting PIC types not the SIC kind. Most carriers that fly internationally PIC type the FOs in training.

Also remember if you go this route (out-of-pocket) to make sure you do NOT have the VMC Circling only restriction on the Type rating. Not one company outside the US will accept the restriction.

 

[KigAir]

Do you get any brownie points if you have been an instructor overseas?

 

[Thedude]

. Not one company outside the US will accept the restriction.

Not completely true but most compaines require you to have the restrcition removed

 

[Thedude]

Do you get any brownie points if you have been an instructor overseas?

Only if you were a TRI or TRE

 

[Shrek]

Not completely true but most compaines require you to have the restrcition removed

Which ones don't? - or is it one of those deals where you are "hired" but need to get it removed before you start work?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Remember - they are wanting PIC types not the SIC kind. Most carriers that fly internationally PIC type the FOs in training.

Also remember if you go this route (out-of-pocket) to make sure you do NOT have the VMC Circling only restriction on the Type rating. Not one company outside the US will accept the restriction.

I had (and still have) this circling VMC only restriction on my FAA license for my CRJ type when I applied here at AJX and it wasn't an issue. Although I understand that it has been an issue at some companies in India. Also, the SIC type is not worth anything outside of the US because there is not such a thing in most CAA's, our F/O's get the same training and check rides (from the left seat) as we do

 

[Shrek]

I had (and still have) this circling VMC only restriction on my FAA license for my CRJ type when I applied here at AJX and it wasn't an issue. Although I understand that it has been an issue at some companies in India. Also, the SIC type is not worth anything outside of the US because there is not such a thing in most CAA's, our F/O's get the same training and check rides (from the left seat) as we do

Sorry - I was referring to A320 and B737 etc. types. Did not have a frame of referrence for the RJ types - thanks for the clarification.

 

[mxer]

Hey DP. I just applied to AJX through PARC a little over a week ago. I only have an RJ type. Being that is smaller than the 737, do you think that could be an issue? What other types do you have. Any idea how long the wait is from here? I have plenty of time and all the requirement a plenty. Just that my only type rating was in a small plane.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It would not be an issue as far as an application as an F/O although it is pretty competitive right now due to the amount of applications they are getting lately with the recent downturn of the industry here in the US. The time frame seems to be about 2 months on average


Good luck

 

[mxer]

Two months to even hear from them or do you mean two months to start training if everything in the interview goes well?