Another "success" for USC...uh...USAPA

[ironspud]

July 24, 2008, 10:49PM
US Airways pilot dismissed over firing gun in jet cockpit

WASHINGTON — The US Airways captain whose gun discharged in the cockpit of a plane landing in Charlotte , N.C., was fired by the airline and removed from the program that allows pilots to be armed, federal safety officials said Thursday.
"The individual is no longer a federal flight deck officer," Kip Hawley, administrator of the Transportation Security Administration and assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said after testifying at a House aviation subcommittee hearing.
Hawley wouldn't say if investigators had decided the March incident was caused by pilot error.
Some industry activists have suggested that the design of the gun's trigger lock and holster makes an accidental discharge possible. But Hawley said Thursday that wasn't a contributing factor.
According to a Charlotte airport police report, the US Airways captain, Jxxxs Lxxxxxxxxn, was stowing his .40-caliber pistol when it discharged a bullet through the jet's cockpit wall and fuselage.
Nobody was injured on the March 22 flight from Denver carrying 124 passengers and five crew members when the gun discharged about eight minutes before landing at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
TSA said that the discharge was the first since pilots were allowed to be armed in an effort to protect flights from the same fate of the Sept. 11 attacks.
Lxxxxxxxxn and spokesmen for US Airways and its pilots union did not immediately return phone messages seeking comment.

 

[becket]

US Air has no pilot union.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I heard USAPA was going to sue the gun as it conspired with the bullet to harm the pilot's career. Seham said he thought it was a slam dunk.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You're saying the union should have saved this moron's job? He should have been fired.

Yes I am a FFDO.

 

[Deadalus]

Their only response was, "we plan to use date of hire to deal with this situation."

 

[Bad-Andy]

You're saying the union should have saved this moron's job? He should have been fired.

Yes I am a FFDO.

I second that... And, just for clarification, it happened while we were still ALPA (for what it's worth...).

 

[OnTheDole]

I think its an even bigger failure on the part of the FFDO program. They insist on breaking fundimental rules of safe weapon handling with their SOPs then turn the other cheek when something that was bound to happen - happens

Oh yeah... and USAPA is a spindless joke that would only put forth the effort to save this guy if he was among their inner circle

 

[PHXFLYR]

I second that... And, just for clarification, it happened while we were still ALPA (for what it's worth...).

Well if that's the case, not to worry. Bradford Thuer and Seham can claim that seeing the gun discharged while you were ALPA and you idiots have decertified the union since then,they'll claim that they "are not party to that agreement" and that Captain Dead Eye's firing is "moot"


PHXFLYR

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I heard USAPA was going to sue the gun as it conspired with the bullet to harm the pilot's career. Seham said he thought it was a slam dunk.

Now that's funny.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Dan Roman]

I think its an even bigger failure on the part of the FFDO program. They insist on breaking fundimental rules of safe weapon handling with their SOPs then turn the other cheek when something that was bound to happen - happens

Oh yeah... and USAPA is a spindless joke that would only put forth the effort to save this guy if he was among their inner circle

That's a good response and good reason why the union SHOULD try and help this guy. I don't know enough of the situation to judge if it was an honest mistake or not, but his "union" should be doing all it can to find out and defend him. Unfortanatly, USAPA does not have the experience and resources ALPA has and as a result, this pilot's career is not as well protected as a USAPA pilot as he would be if he was ALPA.

 

[weasel_lips]

July 24, 2008, 10:49PM
US Airways pilot dismissed over firing gun in jet cockpit

WASHINGTON — The US Airways captain whose gun discharged in the cockpit of a plane landing in Charlotte , N.C., was fired by the airline and removed from the program that allows pilots to be armed, federal safety officials said Thursday.
"The individual is no longer a federal flight deck officer," Kip Hawley, administrator of the Transportation Security Administration and assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said after testifying at a House aviation subcommittee hearing.
Hawley wouldn't say if investigators had decided the March incident was caused by pilot error.
Some industry activists have suggested that the design of the gun's trigger lock and holster makes an accidental discharge possible. But Hawley said Thursday that wasn't a contributing factor.
According to a Charlotte airport police report, the US Airways captain, Jxxxs Lxxxxxxxxn, was stowing his .40-caliber pistol when it discharged a bullet through the jet's cockpit wall and fuselage.
Nobody was injured on the March 22 flight from Denver carrying 124 passengers and five crew members when the gun discharged about eight minutes before landing at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
TSA said that the discharge was the first since pilots were allowed to be armed in an effort to protect flights from the same fate of the Sept. 11 attacks.
Lxxxxxxxxn and spokesmen for US Airways and its pilots union did not immediately return phone messages seeking comment.

Hey...

Your merger at Southern Air / Cargo 360 went Date Of Hire... I don't hear you bitching about that.

Tango Charlie

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I think its an even bigger failure on the part of the FFDO program. They insist on breaking fundimental rules of safe weapon handling with their SOPs then turn the other cheek when something that was bound to happen - happens

Really unfortunate. This was a known hazard that clearly required a higher level of care by the Operator, but there's simply no excuse for the cretins running the program establishing procedures that run contrary to the most basic tenets of safe firearm handling. Wrong hardware + bad S.O.P. + the human factor that any good safety system should be designed to minimize = accident waiting to happen.

 

[eaglesview]

Really unfortunate. This was a known hazard that clearly required a higher level of care by the Operator, but there's simply no excuse for the cretins running the program establishing procedures that run contrary to the most basic tenets of safe firearm handling. Wrong hardware + bad S.O.P. + the human factor that any good safety system should be designed to minimize = accident waiting to happen.

At last a reasonable post. I am not an FFDO but have had the "defect" of the new holster explained to me and even to this non gun owner it seems obvious.

As far as USAPA goes the westies just love having something to blame everything that goes wrong on the East. I am not USAir and am still an ALPA member but here is a news flash. When Santa turns out to be made up it's not USAPA's fault.

 

[Freight Dog]

The guy screwed up. Plain and simple...

I'd like to see how he wrote it up in the maintenance log though.

 

[Freight Dog]

The holster is fine. If he had followed the SOP, this would have never happened, and he wouldn't have gotten fired... pun slightly intended.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

At last a reasonable post. I am not an FFDO but have had the "defect" of the new holster explained to me and even to this non gun owner it seems obvious.

As far as USAPA goes the westies just love having something to blame everything that goes wrong on the East. I am not USAir and am still an ALPA member but here is a news flash. When Santa turns out to be made up it's not USAPA's fault.

If in my attempt to rationally discuss my feelings on the actual incident I failed to convey my utter contempt for the abomination known as USAPA, please allow me to do so at this time.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

At last a reasonable post. I am not an FFDO but have had the "defect" of the new holster explained to me and even to this non gun owner it seems obvious.

As far as USAPA goes the westies just love having something to blame everything that goes wrong on the East. I am not USAir and am still an ALPA member but here is a news flash. When Santa turns out to be made up it's not USAPA's fault.

The "defect" of the holster? Huh? By "defect" do you mean the jacka$$ that was wearing it, or um, supposedly placing it on the side panel?

 

[eaglesview]

The "defect" of the holster? Huh? By "defect" do you mean the jacka$$ that was wearing it, or um, supposedly placing it on the side panel?

Your right, poor choice of words. The holster is poorly designed. I don't believe you will have a lot of trouble finding FFDO's that agree with that.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Your right, poor choice of words. The holster is poorly designed. I don't believe you will have a lot of trouble finding FFDO's that agree with that.

Again, huh?

Never mind, not really right for a public forum. Oh that's right -- you have no idea what you are talking about. Got it.

 

[Tweaker]

my 2 pennies
This specific FFDO - did not follow protocol, also an idiot - it's on him

FFDO protocols - seriously flawed, but not really a factor here

USAPA - had nothing to do with this, and had no standing to intervene

ALPO - chose not to intervene, and I agree with their decision. It would have been a squandering of resources. In cases of gross negligence and willful misconduct you are, legally speaking, on your own.

Overall - A big black eye on a program that serves its purpose well, in spite of the beaurocrats (sp?) running the show in the gubment.

 

[Poahi]

July 24, 2008, 10:49PM
US Airways pilot dismissed over firing gun in jet cockpit

Some industry activists have suggested that the design of the gun's trigger lock and holster makes an accidental discharge possible. But Hawley said Thursday that wasn't a contributing factor.

It wasn't a contributing factor, but I'd bet the lock set up/ procedures will change. It will happen again if it isn't.

 

[Ocity]

The D-bag was playing with his gun at 8000ft. Violation of sterile cockpit. Blatant violation of FARs that could have killed somebody, or everybody on the airplane. Period. That's why he's fired...no lameass excuses like the "poorly" designed holster. F' him.

Maybe he can get some of his Easthole buddies jobs at Wal-Mart when they finally kill of this diseased airline.

 

[MK82Man]

Eaglesview wrote: "As far as USAPA goes the westies just love having something to blame everything that goes wrong on the East. I am not USAir and am still an ALPA member but here is a news flash. When Santa turns out to be made up it's not USAPA's fault."

Eaglesview: I know you are not East, but you can’t imagine the damage USAPA is doing to the new US Airways or to the careers of 1800 West pilots who had the misfortune of being hitched to the downward spiral we are in. At least Santa inspires hope, the inspiration of giving, and a message of peace for all children (hopefully the grown-ups too!). With USCUMa all of us get bags of rocks and lumps of coal. If you can get with an East or West pilot, take a look at the crew news video just out on the company web-site (last week in CLT) of the UCRAPPER union VP who talks to the CEO like he was a school-boy. I’m no management fan, but this self-appointed pilot lets down all pilots when he disrespects a CEO in front of other pilots. He thinks he is negotiating in a pilot visit by the CEO? His grandstanding makes him look like an idiot in front of his peers. Huge Kudos to the East Pilot who stands up to the coal-giver union dude and then dresses him down in front of the entire crowd. The East had a chance for a new contract 18 months ago – didn’t want it. They had a chance to accept the Nic Award two years ago – didn’t want it. We know it ain’t all USAPAs fault, but the bottom line is that USAPA can’t deliver a new contract because they are all focused on the wrong issues. Captain’s authority was a waste of money. Now they are arguing with the CEO on the text used on the Company Web site on how the pilot’s were called in for training. Give me a break. Dude are being furloughed and every month that goes by is another month the East is stuck on LOA 93 wishing for pay parity -- why can’t they get pay parity … IT IS USAPAs fault. AWA went into the business partnership as an even partner. No more. The ship is sinking and will sink on USAPAs watch – they will bear a majority of the blame unless the East starts fixing the problem. We are in the minority out west and are done trying to help them see the error of their ways! I do feel bad for this East pilot. I don’t know all the circumstances but my gut feel is ALPA would have fought to keep his job if over nothing but principle and to educate the other FFDOs and to help protect the program. To bad it got switched to USAPA when he had the discharge.

 

[WateryGrave]

It wasn't a contributing factor, but I'd bet the lock set up/ procedures will change. It will happen again if it isn't.

So "X" number of FFDO's have flown "X" number of flights everyday since we've had this holster and one moron decides to play with his gun at 8,000 feet and blows a hole in the side of the airplane and you think the procedures should change? Why do we always have to make changes to accommodate the lowest common denominator. The only change should have been not letting John Wayne into the program in the first place. I'm thinking better psych testing before people enter the program.

 

[Poahi]

So "X" number of FFDO's have flown "X" number of flights everyday since we've had this holster and one moron decides to play with his gun at 8,000 feet and blows a hole in the side of the airplane and you think the procedures should change? Why do we always have to make changes to accommodate the lowest common denominator. The only change should have been not letting John Wayne into the program in the first place. I'm thinking better psych testing before people enter the program.

I fully agree he made a terrible mistake and should be fired.

The point was that they way the lock is set up isn't ideal. From the FFDO's I've talked to, whether you are in the air or on the ground, the way the gun is secured needs to be changed.

Oh yeah, and that lowest common denominator - he's carrying a gun....

 

[Freight Dog]

So the holster requires a little common sense and adherence to SOP, and now we should change it because it's not 100% idiot-proof.... please!

 

[Poahi]

So the holster requires a little common sense and adherence to SOP, and now we should change it because it's not 100% idiot-proof.... please!

I see your frustration. Many of the FFDO's want it changed.

Personally, I don't even care for the program, but if they want to do it, fine. I just don't want to get shot by someone mishandling a gun in the flight deck. I can't refuse to fly with someone just because they are an FFDO and not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[eaglesview]

So "X" number of FFDO's have flown "X" number of flights everyday since we've had this holster and one moron decides to play with his gun at 8,000 feet and blows a hole in the side of the airplane and you think the procedures should change? Why do we always have to make changes to accommodate the lowest common denominator. The only change should have been not letting John Wayne into the program in the first place. I'm thinking better psych testing before people enter the program.

That's how safety programs work. You don't have to wait for a more severe incident to address a problem.

 

[PCL_128]

So the holster requires a little common sense and adherence to SOP, and now we should change it because it's not 100% idiot-proof.... please!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you don't hold a CCW. Anyone that carries a gun regularly will tell you that this holster design leaves much to be desired. Anything going anywhere close to the trigger is a big no-no.