Delta 'playing hardball' with regional affiliates (Article - June 11)

[General Lee]

Do you think you might, just might, be a little too cavalier about another pilot's livelihood here?

Just askin'...

RJs hurt EVERYONE during high gas. When they can't make money and still fly, they are potentially hurting everyone's livelihood. None of you guys said anything after 9-11 when mainline planes were being parked and RJs expanded everywhere. Remember?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This message is hidden because Jmoney is on your ignore list.


Still the best thing I have ever done on this board. This guy has "Valdosta trash" written all over him.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'll say it. So tomorrow, if Delta parked every 50 seater, what happens to Delta? I think you're simplifying the argument just a bit. 50 seaters serve a function, ideally to feed international flights, in that case they're a loss leader (not the exact definition but close enough). With Delta's emphasis on international, it would seem they serve a vital role. So, wishing them away isn't going to save Delta. As a replacement for domestic flying, well, they don't serve that role in a profitable manner, but that solution is much more complex, ie related to scope, frequency, consumer needs, etc.

Thanks to being desperate during our BK, we signed a lot of deals that were not good for us. (like one in Utah) They are holding us back now. I can understand that we need feed for our INTL feed, that is good. But, we have too much point to point with them, and spoke flights to cities that do not come back with INTL feed---like 4 daily RJs to SYR from JFK. Why do we do that? We are competing with Jetblue E190s, and we really only need one or possibly two a day to feed the mid afternoon and late night Europe banks of departures. The other two flights are a waste. Yes, we need RJs, but we have too many of them. Even Boyd agrees. Obviously RA does too, since he is trying to park a bunch of Freedom Air 50 seaters. Some are good, a lot are NOT. You need to be wishing for Dash-8-400s right now. Those are fuel efficient and can carry a bunch of people.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

How many more E170s and CR9s can Delta allow with their scope clause?

I am thinking those two types would be very popular given the high fuel prices and the need to spread costs over more seats (and the E170 is far more comfortable for passengers than any CRJ).

Right now we give them 3 76 seaters for every new airplane we get on the property. Hopefully that will change with our new JOINT CONTRACT we are negotiating with the company right now. NWA's scope clause is better than our current one, but everything else in their contract stinks. Hopefully we will take the best of both, and we know it could happen because management is desperate to get a joint contract done prior to the companies merging. Fingers crossed!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[No.W.]

And this is why I'm seeking employment OUTSIDE of the airlines.

There is not much good news for ANY RJ operator right now.

I believe Delta bringing the RJ flying in house(Comair) makes sense...and it would work from a logistical standpoint as well...get rid of all the contracts...then give Comair the flying(shrank to about 20% of what it used to be). Keeps all the money in house.

When oil goes to more than $100/bbl lots of things change, including the way you address your regional feed...it's very possible that with high oil prices it is no longer profitable for Delta to have so many contracted carriers. As much as I hate to admit it, I think ALL DCI contract carriers better look out.

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

General:

The Delta and Northwest pilots should staple all of the wholly-owned carriers (Comair, Comapass, and Mesaba) to the bottom of the new joint contract. You could protect your pilots from furlough and let management decide what is most efficient and economical to fly. The scope should be that all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots and not some sort of ratio of mainline flying to regional jet flying.

Bottom line: Let management worry about what to fly and secure ALL flying at mainline.

 

[No.W.]

General:

The Delta and Northwest pilots should staple all of the wholly-owned carriers (Comair, Comapass, and Mesaba) to the bottom of the new joint contract. You could protect your pilots from furlough and let management decide what is most efficient and economical to fly. The scope should be that all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots and not some sort of ratio of mainline flying to regional jet flying.

Bottom line: Let management worry about what to fly and secure ALL flying at mainline.

Though this would suck for me personally, it is the only true answer to this problem.

Bring ALL flying in house. Problem solved.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Delta 'playing hardball' with regional affiliates

You could protect your pilots from furlough...

You don't believe that merger would happen without fences, do you?

Seriously, have we come to expect absolutely nothing from ALPA?

Despite what Generally says, Compass, Mesaba and Comair bring a lot to the table.

 

[Ridgeback]

Why is the E170 'far more comfortable' than any CRJ?

Comfort is nice and all, but does it really affect the bottom line? Doubtful in these times.

This guy is CORRECT!!

Give me a break. Have you EVER flown in an E170? Have you? It is far more comfortable than any CRJ I have ever flown in. What's up with the low windows in the CRJ? Every time I sit on the window I end up hurting my neck as I attempt to look outside. You basically have to sit on the aisle to not hurt your neck while looking out the window. Most business passengers (seem like the only people who can afford flying these days) hate the lack of bin space and often the inability to use their computers inflight (tight seating space) in the CRJs - just ask them... I am sure most business pax would prefer to fly Southwest or AirTran when given the option vs. a CRJ-200/700/900 on a competing route. A 717 is far more comfortable.

The E170 is like a mini-Airbus. Very comfortable with great bins and huge windows in comparison. I'd venture to say that E170s are more comfortable than coach in most big airliners. The CRJ is not comfortable at all. The ERJs suck too in the back. An E170 is as comfortable as a 717 for pax if not a little better.

As far as economics are concerned, sure, the CR9 is probably slightly more economical. But it still has the feel of an RJ vs. the feel of a mini-Airbus in the E170. Regardless, the E170/175 has better economics than anything but the CR9 and it clearly beats other slightly bigger airliners like DC9s and 737-500s from an operational cost standpoint (even though NWA's DC9s are paid off - yada yada yada). The E190 is even better from a cost standpoint.

Simply put, ask passengers who have flown both the CR9 and the E170 and the vast majority will select an E170 any time. I would in a heartbeat. CRJs are just not comfortable for medium to long distance flights.

CRJs/ERJs can be used effectively on non-competing routes when passengers have NO other choice but to fly on it. CRJ-200s/ERJs should not be used on routes where they compete with LCCs like SWA or AirTran or Jet Blue because you cannot spread the operational costs over 50 seats and still charge competitive LCC fares. Not every passenger is an international feed passenger...[/quote]


Just ask ANY Mesaba AVRO driver how much the comfort factor played into keeping that airplane around. I can tell you from ecperience that the AVRO was MUCH!! more comfortable than your your E170 series airplane, and certainly more comfortable than the CRj900, yet I find myself flying around the CRJ900, the AVRO replacement...so your logic is flawed if the deciding factor on keeping an aircraft is comfort, airlines would provide us with our own DAY JET.

SORRY but FUEL is the name of the game and the Mesaba CRJ's are beating the COMPASS E175 by 12%-20%

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This is quite a bit more complex than "my rj is better yhan your rj" This is about filling widebodies and busting unions, all in one fell swoop. Mainline mgmt. loves regional feed, it allows them to rid themselves of pesky mainline UNION pilots who have pesky contracts and replace them with regional UNION pilots who's chitty contracts allow them to be cornholleded at will. If you cannot violate that mainline pilots contract, violate the regional pilots contract by simply canceling it. Make no bones about it this is about controlling labor via contract trickery. Rule is, more money allows you to do anything you want to the labor force. You all think we are special because we are pilots, wrong, mgmt just looks at us the same as the guy who dumps the lav, just slightly more expensive. We are just "the help". Realize that and the power becomes ours, keep thinking we are white collar managers and you will get fat watching Oprah instead of flying.
PBR

 

[Raskal]

I have to agree, comfort is so far down the list it has no bearing whatsoever. Fuel, cheap crews and efficiency=what management cares about. Mgt doesn't give a flying frig at a rolling doughnut whether you think your plane is cool or not.

 

[B727FA]

None of you guys said anything after 9-11 when mainline planes were being parked and RJs expanded everywhere. Remember?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah, I think that was right about the time the Mainline Drivers were asking for pref-hiring and jobs at the regionals that were "destroying the Industry." Amazing what you'll do when you're hungry enough.