NWA Early Retirements with Permanent Part-time Flying.

[FDJ2]

Very interesting, let someone retire, but then let them keep a permanent position flying. Maybe not as many early retirements as expected.

Early Retirement with Permanent Part-Time Flying. This resolution was originally brought to the
first-quarter C20 LEC meeting in March and was “tabled.” C20 members in attendance at the second-quarter
LEC meeting voted “bring it from the table” for consideration, where it subsequently passed. The MEC’s
unanimous action assigned the proposal to the Negotiating Committee, R&I Committee, and Merger Committee
for review and recommendations on how or whether to pursue this proposal. C20 member Greg Proulx deserves
credit for his presentation skills for getting such a potentially difficult issue passed and
further evaluated by both the voting C20 members as well as the NWA MEC.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

wtf???

 

[~~~^~~~]

Isn't that known as "sick time?"

 

[Fly4hire]

Very interesting, let someone retire, but then let them keep a permanent position flying. Maybe not as many early retirements as expected.

It was a stacked deck resolution by supporters at an LEC meeting. Very, VERY unlikely to go anywhere. There are greedy pilots everywhere.

 

[NuGuy]

It was a stacked deck resolution by supporters at an LEC meeting. Very, VERY unlikely to go anywhere. There are greedy pilots everywhere.

Heyas F4H,

Agreed. There's some in every group. You could pay them 400 pay, 80 hours a month, every month, and all they'd have to do is two legs DTW-FNT-DTW on the first tuesday of every month, and you'd have someone saying "WHAT! I want that day off!"

Nu

 

[Colonel Savage]

It was a stacked deck resolution by supporters at an LEC meeting. Very, VERY unlikely to go anywhere. There are greedy pilots everywhere.

Delta had a similar deal for the pilots who took the early out prior to the pension termination. The 777 senior guys could come back as "independent contractors" and fly for about 6-12 months in order to "protect the operation staffing" while Delta realigned the pilot rosters.

Probably where NWA got the idea from.

 

[Schwanker]

Some greedy folks at the top already tried once to have it both ways. When word spread to the troops, it was quickly shot-down. They attempted to sneak it through again when no one was paying attention. I'd expect the same results.

Schwanker

 

[General Lee]

Delta had a similar deal for the pilots who took the early out prior to the pension termination. The 777 senior guys could come back as "independent contractors" and fly for about 6-12 months in order to "protect the operation staffing" while Delta realigned the pilot rosters.

Probably where NWA got the idea from.

Not really. Our contract allowed pilots to give 24 hours notice to retire. 24 hours! When guys were thinking about bailing, they would wait until the last day of each month to look at the GATT rate to determine how much they would get in their lump sum. We were sometimes losing 400 pilots a month, and then the next month we might lose 40. The company could not create a schedule while not knowing who would leave. They almost decided to park the who 777 fleet, thanks to ALL of the 777 Captains deciding whether or not to retire and only giving 24 hours notice. Also, a lot of the check airmen were bailing out too, and that caused problems because it takes a while to train them and have the FAA check them out. So, Dalpa and the company came up with PRPs, and that gave us 6 months to train people who were NOT going to leave as check airmen, and upgrade the rest onto the 777 (which we only had 8 in the fleet back then, and we will have 16 by next March BTW).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

Its nice to enjoy retirements.

 

[General Lee]

Its nice to enjoy retirements.

You boneheads can't understand one HUGE point. After those guys left, we parked old planes (something you HAVEN'T done, yet). We parked MD11s (14 of them, most went to Fedex), 767-200s(15 of them--1 was put into our museum-Spirit of Delta, the rest went to ABX), 737-200s (more than 30 of them), and 737-300s (15 of them). How many is that Clippy? When big equipment leave (MD11s), everyone moves down. And until recently, we only had 8 777s. You guys are just NOW starting to park DC9-30s, and more will surely come, including your fuel guzzling 742s. I bet you will ENJOY those AIRPLANE retirements.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

It was a stacked deck resolution by supporters at an LEC meeting. Very, VERY unlikely to go anywhere. There are greedy pilots everywhere.

Thanks, that makes sense. It's probably some senior pilots looking to retire, keep the part time gig and cash in on any equity that might come from the merger.

 

[patrickdc9]

You boneheads can't understand one HUGE point. After those guys left, we parked old planes (something you HAVEN'T done, yet). We parked MD11s (14 of them, most went to Fedex), 767-200s(15 of them--1 was put into our museum-Spirit of Delta, the rest went to ABX), 737-200s (more than 30 of them), and 737-300s (15 of them). How many is that Clippy? When big equipment leave (MD11s), everyone moves down. And until recently, we only had 8 777s. You guys are just NOW starting to park DC9-30s, and more will surely come, including your fuel guzzling 742s. I bet you will ENJOY those AIRPLANE retirements.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Are you high GL? Prior to BK NWA had 160 DC9's, and now we have 50 ish. We parked 20 DC10's and several 747-200 and 100's. I think we even have some A319's and A320 parked. We probably parked more airplanes in BK than Delta did. In fact it's been widely reported that NWA did a better job of cutting cost and capacity in BK than any other airline. And NWA was very conservative in putting capacity back into the system, which is why I think we have had to announce any further capacity reductions like all the others have. So just relax on your theory that Delta parked more inefficient aircraft than NWA did.

What else do you have punk b*tch?

 

[800Dog]

Are you high GL? Prior to BK NWA had 160 DC9's, and now we have 50 ish. We parked 20 DC10's and several 747-200 and 100's. I think we even have some A319's and A320 parked. We probably parked more airplanes in BK than Delta did. In fact it's been widely reported that NWA did a better job of cutting cost and capacity in BK than any other airline. And NWA was very conservative in putting capacity back into the system, which is why I think we have had to announce any further capacity reductions like all the others have. So just relax on your theory that Delta parked more inefficient aircraft than NWA did.

What else do you have punk b*tch?

He will tell you that you have to wear your hat when you join Delta. Please feel free to join the dark side here at DAL where hats are optional. We are a minority but a proud minority. We enjoy buying drinks for our fellow pilots and actually believe in the piloting profession over the management profession. It is our hope that the NWA pilots level the playing field between us no voters and the yes men at DAL. Lets focus on the real fight which is a fight for our profession and not a fight for our egos! 1st round is on me.

 

[General Lee]

Are you high GL? Prior to BK NWA had 160 DC9's, and now we have 50 ish. We parked 20 DC10's and several 747-200 and 100's. I think we even have some A319's and A320 parked. We probably parked more airplanes in BK than Delta did. In fact it's been widely reported that NWA did a better job of cutting cost and capacity in BK than any other airline. And NWA was very conservative in putting capacity back into the system, which is why I think we have had to announce any further capacity reductions like all the others have. So just relax on your theory that Delta parked more inefficient aircraft than NWA did.

What else do you have punk b*tch?

More airplanes than we parked? I guess you forgot we had L1011s (domestic and L15s for INTL) and 727s (a lot more than you did). They all left after 9-11 too. The key part here is that when we lost the 2000 Captains, we also parked a large amount at the SAME time. You have not done that, and gave away the farm to keep your pensions, so the top few can stay till 65 and really enjoy it. Those 742s and DC9s that are still around are really losing a lot of money on GAS. You can't get away from that. You may have a scope scheme that keeps them around, which is great for you, but you know that they will be gone sooner than anything else. And, before you blame us for anything, this JOINT contract better have provisions to keep your DC9 pilots around if they need to be parked. BOTH MECs need to work on this. Bye now.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

He will tell you that you have to wear your hat when you join Delta. Please feel free to join the dark side here at DAL where hats are optional. We are a minority but a proud minority. We enjoy buying drinks for our fellow pilots and actually believe in the piloting profession over the management profession. It is our hope that the NWA pilots level the playing field between us no voters and the yes men at DAL. Lets focus on the real fight which is a fight for our profession and not a fight for our egos! 1st round is on me.

Will I tell him to wear his hat? Here it is in Minnesota speak---"You BETCHA." But, I will tell him to wear it backwards like a baret. He will look like an Air France pilot, and The SkyTeam Alliance will be proud of him.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Those 742s and DC9s that are still around are really losing a lot of money on GAS. You can't get away from that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Really? I thought the NWA profits were more than DALs last year?. Even with the dc9s and 747-200s no doubt. Either way its pointless because we are going to be one company very soon anyway and we will either prosper of fail as a single company. Cheers :beer:

 

[patrickdc9]

He will tell you that you have to wear your hat when you join Delta. Please feel free to join the dark side here at DAL where hats are optional. We are a minority but a proud minority. We enjoy buying drinks for our fellow pilots and actually believe in the piloting profession over the management profession. It is our hope that the NWA pilots level the playing field between us no voters and the yes men at DAL. Lets focus on the real fight which is a fight for our profession and not a fight for our egos! 1st round is on me.

I look forward to it. I'll get the second and third round.

 

[patrickdc9]

More airplanes than we parked? I guess you forgot we had L1011s (domestic and L15s for INTL) and 727s (a lot more than you did). They all left after 9-11 too. The key part here is that when we lost the 2000 Captains, we also parked a large amount at the SAME time.

I believe you parked a lot of aircraft, but I don't think you parked any more relative to us. I'd like you to do some more research on this and get back to me before you post this statment again.

Those 742s and DC9s that are still around are really losing a lot of money on GAS. You can't get away from that.

Agreed that the 742's are costly, but not necessarily because of fuel, but maintenance and reliabitily issues. This is why we could be ending our freighter ops. But the DC9 is not as costly as you and everyone thinks it is, especially on shorter routes. I've seen numerous data on CASM from the company and on this webboard which indicates the 9 is similar to the A319. If the DC9 was so costly, we would have parked them and replaced them with E190's a year ago. But NWA is not in a hurry and decided to wait for Bombardier to develop the next generation "C" series aircraft to replace the 9.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I've seen numerous data on CASM from the company and on this webboard which indicates the 9 is similar to the A319. If the DC9 was so costly, we would have parked them and replaced them with E190's a year ago. But NWA is not in a hurry and decided to wait for Bombardier to develop the next generation "C" series aircraft to replace the 9.

Wrong:

2007 NWA CASM:
DC9-30: 11.1
DC9-40: 9.5
DC9-50: 8.8
A319: 6.1
757-200: 5.6

The majority of the DC9 replacements are happening this fall. The CRJ's and E170's were ordered approximately two years ago. A few DC9's will hang on until the backfill by regional carriers is completed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Really? I thought the NWA profits were more than DALs last year?

Very close to the same 1.1Bn for each. It is confusing because NWA both came out of bankruptcy last year and there are a lot of "fresh start" items.

NWA's numbers are good. They also benefitted having 7 to 8% lower fuel costs per gallon related to hedges.

The 747-200's did not pull their weight. The cargo operation was responsible for NWA's decreasing overall revenues for 2007.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Are you high GL? Prior to BK NWA had 160 DC9's, and now we have 50 ish.

What else do you have punk b*tch?

Here's a link to your own fleet numbers:

http://ir.nwa.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=111021&p=irol-fleet

You were only incorrect by 75% ish.

 

[p3flteng]

Aren't they shifting the 200's to the military charter, that means that no matter how much gas they burn it is paid for by the DOD, that is cost plus a percetage on top for profit( I believe ten percent but not sure). See MSP 200 base info .

 

[~~~^~~~]

Other operators are complaining that their DOD contracts are not providing relief from fuel prices, but it makes sense that NWA would try to grab some new contracts to operate those jets.

Their CASM is 8.9 cents, while a 400's CASM is 5.0 and a A330 could get the job done for 4.3.

I do not see the 747-200's being around for long unless it is in a low frequency..high revenue operation like DOD work.

 

[p3flteng]

Here's a link to your own fleet numbers:

http://ir.nwa.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=111021&p=irol-fleet

You were only incorrect by 75% ish.

Are you talking about the DC9's ?

160 pre bankruptcy, and 87 now...then you can hammer him for being 27 off...but, I believe the point he is making is that by summers end another 27 will be parked and that will leave a fleet of about sixty, we will already of absorbed the fleet shrinkage into our staffing and this will be done well before any SLI or actual merger consumation.

 

[patrickdc9]

Aren't they shifting the 200's to the military charter, that means that no matter how much gas they burn it is paid for by the DOD, that is cost plus a percetage on top for profit( I believe ten percent but not sure). See MSP 200 base info .

Currently only one aircraft now for charters, hopefully it will become two aircraft.

 

[patrickdc9]

Wrong:

2007 NWA CASM:
DC9-30: 11.1
DC9-40: 9.5
DC9-50: 8.8
A319: 6.1
757-200: 5.6

The majority of the DC9 replacements are happening this fall. The CRJ's and E170's were ordered approximately two years ago. A few DC9's will hang on until the backfill by regional carriers is completed.

I've seen you post these numbers before, but I'm not sure I trust them. Where are your numbers coming from and do they include lease costs?

Also, you may not be aware of something called "scope" since I think you're a Delta guy, but we have something in our current contract that prohibits the replacement of all our DC9 flying with E175 and RJ flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Source is 2007 Aviation Daily statistics. They also match ALPA's report and include lease costs whether they be cap. leases or operating leases.

You point is correct about scope and well taken.

The talk is that fuel prices have overcome scope concerns. But, their own data shows that they are wrong. For instance:

CASM (again)
MD88: 7.5
CRJ900: 7.3

Yes, that is close - but - the CRJ900's can be financed with SkyWest's money, not Delta's precious cash. And, airlines like SkyWest and Republic will pay big up front bucks to buy in to codeshare arrangements. RAH gave US Air something like 300 million and SkyWest paid $425,000,000.00 for ASA.

I'm hoping the more militant NWA guys help fix our perspectives on scope. I personally would like to get Compass on the list as a way to start returning this flying to mainline.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Yo Dog,

I starting to like you more and more. Hope more of our new family members are like you vs some of the others on here. First its lap dances, now you tell us there are some no hat wearing guys and you buy the first beer. Sheet, this might actually be a good place to work:beer:

He will tell you that you have to wear your hat when you join Delta. Please feel free to join the dark side here at DAL where hats are optional. We are a minority but a proud minority. We enjoy buying drinks for our fellow pilots and actually believe in the piloting profession over the management profession. It is our hope that the NWA pilots level the playing field between us no voters and the yes men at DAL. Lets focus on the real fight which is a fight for our profession and not a fight for our egos! 1st round is on me.

 

[DTW320]

Fins: What the heck is your deal? You say this in another thread:

NWA is in the middle of outsourcing their DC9's to regional airlines. This happened over a year ago when NWA ordered the CRJ's and E-Jets. It is rediculous to blame this pre-planned fleet change on Delta, or its' pilots. Most of this will happen by Winter Qtr 08.

and then a few minutes later, when someone points out to you that NWA scope prevents such a scenario, you say this:

You point is correct about scope and well taken.

From your tenure here, I know that our scope clause was not news to you, so, are you suffering from selective amnesia? Bi-Polar?......or just stirring the pot/flamebaiting?

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW:

According to Steenland's comments in 3rd and 4th QTR 07 report Conference Calls, which I posted repeatedly here on the board, NWA's scope does not limit the CRJ's and E-Jets replacement of the DC9's. NWA's pilots on this board replied that Steenland was a liar. FACT: half of your pre Compass DC9 fleet will be replaced by this fall and I've heard nothing that your scope is stopping it.

I am hearing the rest of the DC9 fleet can not be replaced due to scope constraints. I have not seen your language and don't know who's telling the truth on the next 50(ish) airplanes. Steenland says "no" restraint, your pilots say differently. I think I trust public, published, sources over web board sources, but admit I'm no expert on NWA contract language.

The economic pressure to outsource the rest of the DC9 and some of the MD88 fleet is significant. Anyone who says differently should be interested in buying a Hummer dealership (there are plenty for sale right now).

My posts reflect the uncertainties of our situation regarding scope. We do not know what our Reps are negotiating in our joint contract. None of the usual section 6 protocols are being followed to keep this thing moving forward quickly.

My Reps are briefed up on the idea that fuel prices make scope less important, when the numbers tell me the opposite. I've read a few personal comments from your Representatives and candidly, I like what the NWA pilots are thinking on scope better than what the Delta pilots are saying. I'm wanting to at least take back the DC9 flying by putting Compass on the list. That's pretty far removed from what the Delta pilots are focused on right now.

I think it is consistent and fair to say that the outsourcing of the DC9's is a NWA problem. Superpilot's effort to paint this on a joint pilot agreement that has not even been drafted yet is misinformation designed to give him an entitlement to my seat. I hope that this drags out another 12 months so we both have better information. Et tu?

Confused yet?

P.S. Overall I like the way our Reps have handled this on the Delta end. True, we disagree on scope, but a junior nobody is never going to get everything he wants.