"Fair" treatment for "experienced" pilots comes home to roost?

[atrdriver]

You anti-ALPA guys are UFB. First of all, you blame ALPA for a change in the Age 60 rule that was going to happen anyway, whether you, I, or ALPA liked it or not. But it's ALPA's fault. Fine.

Fortunately, ALPA leadership doesn't come to flightinfo.com for legislative advice. Despite having been able to keep Age 60 over the past decade or two, this time ALPA sees the writing on the wall months ago and sees that Age 60 is going to change, like it or not. They realize that they can "fight to the death" and not get a role in the rule making that will ultimately decide how Age 65 is shaped or they can change their position and have a chance of receiving some "gets."

One of the "gets" that ALPA receives for not ridiculously "fighting to the death" is wording in the Age 65 legislation that will prevent guys who have already retired under the Age 60 rule from coming back, which would obviously be pretty bad for all of us.

So now you anti-ALPA guys confuse me. You complain that ALPA didn't "fight to the death" concerning Age 60 and blame ALPA for the change. ALPA wisely didn't "fight to the death" concerning Age 60 so that they could get this wording (among other things) into the legislation to keep the already retired guys from coming back, WHICH IS WORDING THAT ALPA ONLY GOT BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO CHANGE THEIR POSITION ON AGE 60. The only reason you don't have guys flooding back to the seniority list RIGHT NOW is because of the wording ALPA was able to obtain by not foolishly "fighting to the death." But then you complain about that, too!

For those of you who bit**ed about ALPA not "fighting to the death" concerning the rule change, how can you come on here and complain about this protection ALPA was able to fight for ONLY by being forced to change its position on Capital Hill? If ALPA had done things "your way," we'd probably already have even more furloughs as there would have been NOTHING to prevent all of these guys from coming back in the first place. Again, some of you guys are UFB!

You don't seem to understand. While I was pretty pissed off at Prater for rolling on this, I at least understood why it happened. But your "get" that we received, in fact the main one, is that those that were already retired wouldn't be able to come back. Look at the lawsuit. I said at the time it would happen, and people said "no, the wording says they can't." I said some lawyer would take it, and they said no one would because they knew they would lose. Well, here we are, we have our lawsuit, and I would be surprised if those that did retire before the deadline aren't allowed to come back. But no, I'm not mad at ALPA, I'm mad at the whiny, worthless, SOS, greedy pricks that think that their benefiting all those years wasn't good enough, they had to screw the junior guys a few more times before they left.

 

[~~~^~~~]

... wording in the law excluded some 3,000 veteran pilots forced to retire between November 23, 2006, and December 17, 2007, from being rehired at their previously held seniority levels.

3,000 seems like an awfully big, round, number. At the airlines I am familiar with there were only a small number effected (less than a dozen across two major carriers). At FedEx they ran to the Second Officer seat as ROPES and are now in the process of bidding back.

Where does 3,000 come from? Anyone have a feel for which airlines are most effected?

In addition to the law, it seems like a private employer's own contracts would be valid. At Delta these pilots have to come back as new hires per agreement between ALPA and the Company.

In any event, what a mess. At Companies like FedEx this works out to be more than $2+ million per pilot when you figure in the benefits (less retirement not taken). Plus someone is saving a cash outlay on retirement benefits. Like ATR, I knew there would be lawsuits over this. The guys who fought hardest for the change ended up missing the deadline - everyone knew they were not going to just walk away.

I do not see ALPA's involvement though. This was Congress at work under the realization that economics and standards adopted elsewhere in the World were more compelling factors than the status quo.

 

[pipejockey]

Everyone calm down!!!

ALPA National will fight hard to prevent this from happening. They fought hard to stop age 65 and they will fight hard to stop this lawsuit.

I have all the confidence in the world in our "leadership".

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I certainly hope you are being facetious. alpo is as impotent as a post-op male to female transexual!!

 

[Flopgut]

You anti-ALPA guys are UFB. First of all, you blame ALPA for a change in the Age 60 rule that was going to happen anyway, whether you, I, or ALPA liked it or not. But it's ALPA's fault. Fine.

Fortunately, ALPA leadership doesn't come to flightinfo.com for legislative advice. Despite having been able to keep Age 60 over the past decade or two, this time ALPA sees the writing on the wall months ago and sees that Age 60 is going to change, like it or not. They realize that they can "fight to the death" and not get a role in the rule making that will ultimately decide how Age 65 is shaped or they can change their position and have a chance of receiving some "gets."

One of the "gets" that ALPA receives for not ridiculously "fighting to the death" is wording in the Age 65 legislation that will prevent guys who have already retired under the Age 60 rule from coming back, which would obviously be pretty bad for all of us.

So now you anti-ALPA guys confuse me. You complain that ALPA didn't "fight to the death" concerning Age 60 and blame ALPA for the change. ALPA wisely didn't "fight to the death" concerning Age 60 so that they could get this wording (among other things) into the legislation to keep the already retired guys from coming back, WHICH IS WORDING THAT ALPA ONLY GOT BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO CHANGE THEIR POSITION ON AGE 60. The only reason you don't have guys flooding back to the seniority list RIGHT NOW is because of the wording ALPA was able to obtain by not foolishly "fighting to the death." But then you complain about that, too!

For those of you who bit**ed about ALPA not "fighting to the death" concerning the rule change, how can you come on here and complain about this protection ALPA was able to fight for ONLY by being forced to change its position on Capital Hill? If ALPA had done things "your way," we'd probably already have even more furloughs as there would have been NOTHING to prevent all of these guys from coming back in the first place. Again, some of you guys are UFB!

UFB?? That would be how clueless your post is!! Of course we knew this was going to happen.

ALPA/Prater put this element in to take complete care of his generation. His greed/arrogance knows no bounds, really. It's paper thin protection that could go either way as we proceed. The rule could end up 60 again, or everyone could come back. What Prater succeeded in was precluding a proper solution to the rule change which would have been: phased in, arbitrated, grandfathered, or an outright legislated dissolution of the seniority system! Command evaluation at 5 years...sink or swim.

Personally, I think he [Prater] wrote it with the intention that it fail later. At CAL, we had to let instructors back to the line that were clearly excluded by the rule. CALALAPA lawyers went to work against it right away certain it was cut and dry: They were out. Not the case. The ruling came from the FAA that these over 60 pilots could return to the line. It is believed the ruling from the FAA resulted from political pressure that came indirectly from Prater. He wanted guys like you to feel like he was helping you with this language but he doesn't intend to keep it up. Think about the medical caveate: A two year committment on no changed requirements?? Who does that help?? Do you actually think in two years the standards won't begin to change?? He's just taking care of himself and the small number of members he cares about!!

You need to sit down and think about something before you post. You're about 3 moves behind.

 

[JohnQ]

Personally, I think he [Prater] wrote it with the intention that it fail later.

One of the stranger quotes I've ever read on FI--and that is saying something. Do you have clairvoyance? Otherwise, any post starting with the words, "personally, I think..." is destined to be ignored.

At CAL, we had to let instructors back to the line that were clearly excluded by the rule. CALALAPA lawyers went to work against it right away certain it was cut and dry: They were out. Not the case. The ruling came from the FAA that these over 60 pilots could return to the line.

No one outside of CAL could possibly comment on this--too much inside dirty pool that only CAL guys could know about--so I won't comment.

It is believed the ruling from the FAA resulted from political pressure that came indirectly from Prater.

"It is believed?" "Pressure that came indirectly?" By whom? Where is your evidence? These are some rather generic claims--but that is the beauty of them--without citing ANY specifics, you can say things like "it is believed" and mention "indirect pressure" (whatever that means) to disparage Prater when it is unwarranted--and you don't have to prove anything. "It is believed" by many that the moon landing was a fake and 9/11 was a conspiracy by the Jews/US government/take your pick. But where is the evidence?

You need to sit down and think about something before you post. You're about 3 moves behind.

Seems to me that he is a (rather loud) voice of reason. I don't think he is "behind" at all.

 

[Freight Dog]

Oh, the irony...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Solution: Let them all come back...to the bottom of the list.

 

[Motown]

...but wording in the law excluded some 3,000 veteran pilots forced to retire between November 23, 2006, and December 17, 2007, from being rehired at their previously held seniority levels....

17-DEC-2007 is the date the law went into effect, but what happened 13 months earlier on 23-NOV-2006?

 

[N1VIBS]

Perhaps its time to stiffen the medical requirements for a Class I or II. Maybe a good expose to the press about how easy it is to shop around for a certificate might weed some of the old bastards out.

Be careful what you wish for. Stricter medical standards would probably weed out some over 60 pilots. Unfortunately it would get rid of a heck of a lot of pilots under 60!! I'm amazed at the number of pilots I see (and some I know personally) in their 30's 40's and 50's, who are overweight anywhere from a few pounds to God knows how much. I don't think they have heard of exercise, eat healthy, no smoking, cut down on the coffee etc. Don't believe me? Just look around.

 

[atrdriver]

Solution: Let them all come back...to the bottom of the list.

That was my original solution to this. If someone wanted to continue flying past 60 then they would go back to the FO seat. They could bid what their overall seniority could hold, but they would fly in the right seat at right seat pay. Topped out FO pay isn't too bad most places, and those that needed a little extra money could have come back that way without screwing the junior pilots. Of course that wouldn't have been good enough for them though.

 

[atrdriver]

Be careful what you wish for. Stricter medical standards would probably weed out some over 60 pilots. Unfortunately it would get rid of a heck of a lot of pilots under 60!! I'm amazed at the number of pilots I see (and some I know personally) in their 30's 40's and 50's, who are overweight anywhere from a few pounds to God knows how much. I don't think they have heard of exercise, eat healthy, no smoking, cut down on the coffee etc. Don't believe me? Just look around.

I'd be willing to bet that if the US went to the same medical standards that IACO has 30-40% of pilots over 40 would lose their medicals. And It WILL happen, it's just a matter of when. As soon as the 65 thing passed it was a guarantee that the medical standards would get tougher at some point.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Solution: Let them all come back...to the bottom of the list.

They can do that now. Under the law, they are not precluded from returning to their airlines, only from sueing for their seniority.

They can all come back as new hire F/Os.

 

[vetrider]

They should just be happy for their experienced brothers who made the 17th cutoff, congratulate them, stfu, and call it a day. But noooooo.....

If I were king for a day I'd just change it back to 60. Look, you children can't behave, so we're turning this car back around right NOW.

Seriously, though, just let em sue. Fight it out in the courts, its the American way.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts. No one can argue against justice if it is righteous and true. If anyone’s actions, ALPA, FAA, APA, ATA or individual airlines were acting against the law or the Constitution, then those affected by such actions should be made whole. In the case of the age 60 law, after 11/23/06, the FAA did not grant equal protection under the law when it allowed some Americans (those flying for a foreign airline) to fly in this country when others in this country could not. While the FAA failed and may have to pay, ALPA/APA did everything they could to help perpetuate this injustice. What will happen is up to the Federal Courts

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

After 12/13/07 the injustice of the law became worse and a greater target. Yes, it did allow many to keep flying, but it prevented those born before that date from working for no reason except their birthday.

Justice will come, it will either strike down the age 65 law altogether or it will sustain the change and award compensation to those wronged. Personally, I think most would just as soon take the cash and run. It's mostly all about money! Not all, but mostly.

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they? They all knew what they were doing was wrong at the time and were warned over and over of the lawsuits that would follow after 11/23/06 if the age 60 law was not changed for all American as well as foreign crews.

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each. Would that be difficult for ALPA and APA to pay? If so, it's just as this thread implies, "The Chickens are Coming Home to Roost."

 

[Patriot328]

They can do that now. Under the law, they are not precluded from returning to their airlines, only from sueing for their seniority.

They can all come back as new hire F/Os.

Too bad no one is hiring.... Just think, if we had some retirements coming up, we might have some hiring this year.... but whoops...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts. No one can argue against justice if it is righteous and true. If anyone’s actions, ALPA, FAA, APA, ATA or individual airlines were acting against the law or the Constitution, then those affected by such actions should be made whole. In the case of the age 60 law, after 11/23/06, the FAA did not grant equal protection under the law when it allowed some Americans (those flying for a foreign airline) to fly in this country when others in this country could not. While the FAA failed and may have to pay, ALPA/APA did everything they could to help perpetuate this injustice. What will happen is up to the Federal Courts

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

After 12/13/07 the injustice of the law became worse and a greater target. Yes, it did allow many to keep flying, but it prevented those born before that date from working for no reason except their birthday.

Justice will come, it will either strike down the age 65 law altogether or it will sustain the change and award compensation to those wronged. Personally, I think most would just as soon take the cash and run. It's mostly all about money! Not all, but mostly.

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they? They all knew what they were doing was wrong at the time and were warned over and over of the lawsuits that would follow after 11/23/06 if the age 60 law was not changed for all American as well as foreign crews.

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each. Would that be difficult for ALPA and APA to pay? If so, it's just as this thread implies, "The Chickens are Coming Home to Roost."

Your take on reality....is amazing...

making ALPA, the APA, ATA or whoever liable for a law that congress passed..... is..... amazing....

Where do you people come from?

There are 3000 pilots effected? 300 million people in this country?

So this country is going to take time for .0001% of us....

 

[instructordude]

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

“It is often easier to become outraged by injustice half a world away than by oppression and discrimination half a block from home.”

Carl T Rowan

Let's do the right and bring these guys back. We can show as a group, we are United against discrimination and will not tolerate it now nor will we accept its evil past.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts. No one can argue against justice if it is righteous and true. If anyone’s actions, ALPA, FAA, APA, ATA or individual airlines were acting against the law or the Constitution, then those affected by such actions should be made whole. In the case of the age 60 law, after 11/23/06, the FAA did not grant equal protection under the law when it allowed some Americans (those flying for a foreign airline) to fly in this country when others in this country could not. While the FAA failed and may have to pay, ALPA/APA did everything they could to help perpetuate this injustice. What will happen is up to the Federal Courts

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

After 12/13/07 the injustice of the law became worse and a greater target. Yes, it did allow many to keep flying, but it prevented those born before that date from working for no reason except their birthday.

Justice will come, it will either strike down the age 65 law altogether or it will sustain the change and award compensation to those wronged. Personally, I think most would just as soon take the cash and run. It's mostly all about money! Not all, but mostly.

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they? They all knew what they were doing was wrong at the time and were warned over and over of the lawsuits that would follow after 11/23/06 if the age 60 law was not changed for all American as well as foreign crews.

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each. Would that be difficult for ALPA and APA to pay? If so, it's just as this thread implies, "The Chickens are Coming Home to Roost."

Other's should be taking notes, the man has a point.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I agree with you worthless SCAB and all of the other baby boomer douchbags that have benefited from the guys before you retiring at 60. You all get to come back with seniority, however your pay, retirement you have already received, and earnings adjusted using a lookback at your career advancement due to pilots having to retire at 60 that are past 65 and can't come back is recouped for those pilots via your current paycheck and a lump some to buy back in. If you won't agree to that it just proves what a bunch of greedy SCUMBAG SCABS you are. So, go ahead and sue alpa. We, the active pilots will disband alpa so quick you senile greedy old losers won't have anyone to sue.

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts. No one can argue against justice if it is righteous and true. If anyone’s actions, ALPA, FAA, APA, ATA or individual airlines were acting against the law or the Constitution, then those affected by such actions should be made whole. In the case of the age 60 law, after 11/23/06, the FAA did not grant equal protection under the law when it allowed some Americans (those flying for a foreign airline) to fly in this country when others in this country could not. While the FAA failed and may have to pay, ALPA/APA did everything they could to help perpetuate this injustice. What will happen is up to the Federal Courts

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

After 12/13/07 the injustice of the law became worse and a greater target. Yes, it did allow many to keep flying, but it prevented those born before that date from working for no reason except their birthday.

Justice will come, it will either strike down the age 65 law altogether or it will sustain the change and award compensation to those wronged. Personally, I think most would just as soon take the cash and run. It's mostly all about money! Not all, but mostly.

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they? They all knew what they were doing was wrong at the time and were warned over and over of the lawsuits that would follow after 11/23/06 if the age 60 law was not changed for all American as well as foreign crews.

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each. Would that be difficult for ALPA and APA to pay? If so, it's just as this thread implies, "The Chickens are Coming Home to Roost."

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts. No one can argue against justice if it is righteous and true. If anyone’s actions, ALPA, FAA, APA, ATA or individual airlines were acting against the law or the Constitution, then those affected by such actions should be made whole. In the case of the age 60 law, after 11/23/06, the FAA did not grant equal protection under the law when it allowed some Americans (those flying for a foreign airline) to fly in this country when others in this country could not. While the FAA failed and may have to pay, ALPA/APA did everything they could to help perpetuate this injustice. What will happen is up to the Federal Courts

Can anyone argue against justice? Basically, wrongdoers should pay and those wronged should be righted. Does anyone have a problem with this?

After 12/13/07 the injustice of the law became worse and a greater target. Yes, it did allow many to keep flying, but it prevented those born before that date from working for no reason except their birthday.

Justice will come, it will either strike down the age 65 law altogether or it will sustain the change and award compensation to those wronged. Personally, I think most would just as soon take the cash and run. It's mostly all about money! Not all, but mostly.

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they? They all knew what they were doing was wrong at the time and were warned over and over of the lawsuits that would follow after 11/23/06 if the age 60 law was not changed for all American as well as foreign crews.

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each. Would that be difficult for ALPA and APA to pay? If so, it's just as this thread implies, "The Chickens are Coming Home to Roost."

The lawsuits will go nowhere. Here's my take on it; in order for those pilots to have a 'cause of action' they would have to 'state and prove' that the law as enacted is 'discriminatory' on the basis of age, and did not provide for 'equal treatment' under the law. If they are successful in doing so, and a Federal Judge finds as such; the Judge would have No choice but to 'strike down' the Law. In such a case, it would be as though the Law was never enacted, and the previous law (age 60) would prevail. Thus, the day after the Judge's decision, everyone over the age of 60 would Not be legally allowed to fly. Then the advocates of age 65 would have to get the congress to enact a new, with a 'New' congress and probably even more opposition.

That's my take. Maybe Occam can chime in on this, as he always seems to have a very logical and reasoned outlook. Tell me where my logic has gone wrong??

For what its worth.

PD