ASTAR'S Race to the Bottom

[DC8CRIVER]

Sorry I’m so ignorant on this subject but could someone give me a “dual-given” on the corporate structure of DHL? Mainly I’d like to know which airlines are “DHL” and which ones are considered feeders? Who is using the DHL call sign?

I know that ABX and ASTAR do mostly DHL flying and additionally in Asia I see Air Hong Kong painted in yellow, I think they’re DHL too, correct? Also, doesn't Polar (or is it Atlas?) belong to DHL?

Sorry, I'm really ignorant here but it appears to me that the DHL structure must be every airline management’s dream? Talk about divide and conquer mentality... Has there ever been an attempt for all, or most of the DHL carriers pilots getting together to create one DHL union or maybe even to keep different unions but to ask for exactly the same contract?

Full disclosure, I work for the brown competition but I always felt that a good contract for one pilot group is good for other pilot groups too…

AV8OR,

DHL has woven what is perhaps most complicated web of airlines the world has ever seen. As FR8DOG said, Astar is the one carrier that uses the DHL call sign. Astar was, prior to 2003, known as DHL Airways (and DHL Worldwide prior to that, I believe) and is the original airline DHL started back when Larry Hillbloom was still at the helm. Many of the Astar pilots (and, incidentally, none of the current management) knew Larry personally and have some VERY interesting stories about our illustrious founder.

Anyway, these carriers are owned in large part or entirely by DHL Worldwide Express, its parent company or one of its affiliates (eg DHL Aviation). I'm not sure how current this list is as this is a very slippery snake to put a halter on...

Asian Express Airlines (Australia)
1 727-200
Astar Air Cargo (USA) (DHL Owns 49%)
29 727-200
6 A300B4
8 DC8-73F
Blue Dart Aviation (India)
5 737-200
2 757-200
DHL Aero Expresso (Panama)
4 727-200
DHL Air (UK)
20 757-200
DHL Angola (Angola)
(no fleet details)
DHL de Guatemala (Guatemala)
(no fleet details)
DHL Ecuador (Ecuador)
1 ATR72
DHL International (UAE)
6 727-200
EAT - European Air Transport (Belgium)
11 757-200
14 A300B4
Polar Air Cargo (USA) (DHL Owns 49%)
6 747-400F
1 747-200F
SNAS (Bahrain)
? 727's and Metros
Solinair (Slovenia)
? Antonov AN12's

The following carriers provide lift for but are not controlled by DHL or its parent company (DHL does have a minority stake in some though). These carriers are free to contract with others as well, but the bulk of their freight revenue comes from DHL and many (most) of their planes are in DHL livery.

ABX Air (USA)
42 767-200
24 DC9-30
25 DC9-40
Air Hong Kong (China)
8 A300-600F
Swiftair (Spain)
1 727-200
1 A300B4 (leased from EAT)
5 ATR42
4 ATR72
(This list does not include Swiftair’s passenger aircraft)
Vensecar International (Venezuela)
1 727-100
2 727-200
2 ATR42

These carriers operate dedicated DHL flights, but in their own livery and DHL is just one of many customers.

Ada Air (Albania)
Amerijet (USA)
Atlas Air (USA)
CargoJet Airways (Canada)
Gemini (USA)
Japan Airlines (Japan)
Lufthansa Cargo (Germany)
Martinaire (USA)
Merlin Airways (USA)
Northwest Airlines (USA)
Skyway Enterprise (USA)
Trade Air (Croatia)
Transcarga (Venezuela)
Transmile Air Services (Malaysia)
West Air Sweden (Sweden)

Finally, I believe there is also a Nordic carrier operating flights on behalf of DHL in DHL livery (I want to say Maersk but I think they fly for UPS in Europe) and World Airways used to fly for DHL, but does not do so directly (although Lufthansa Cargo has a wet-lease agreement with World Airways for one of the three MD11s Lufthansa Cargo flies on behalf of DHL across the Atlantic every weeknight).

The beauty of DHL's airline network is that they essentially have total control of a local airline in every corner of the world. BAD for pilots - good for DHL. It's probably not too hard for you to predict what would happen if Brown or Purple wanted to open a domicile in some foreign country (seeing as how this is being attempted by both with difficult success right now). The economics of one airline effectively serving the entire globe are unrealistic to say the least. Brown and Purple know this but your contract has them by the nuts for the time being. Do whatever you have to to prevent what has happened to us from happening to you because once that camel gets its nose into your tent, there's no turning back...

__________________

 

[AV80R]

nitefr8dog & DC8CRIVER - Thanks for the explanation, makes a little more sense now. Wow, a complicated structure for sure.

DC8criver – as far as opening a foreign domicile, I know purple is trying to open Hong Kong and Paris, even though I was told by a Purple driver the other day that Paris was cancelled, not sure for how long… I haven’t heard of Brown trying to open a foreign domicile except a sorting facility in Shanghai. I wish we did have a foreign domicile and I’d bid one in a heartbeat, maybe one day it’ll happen…

Just imagine if the three largest cargo airlines’ unions were to join forces – a purple/brown/yellow alliance – sure the resulting color would look ugly as hell but talk about negotiating power…

Also, just to clarify in case I get erroneous PMs again - AV80R (me) is a UPS driver while AV8OR is an Astar driver (I think?).
So if you agree with the post - PM me. If you hate it - PM AV8OR!

 

[time builder]

Blue Dart Aviation? That just made my morning.

 

[AV8OR]

So if you agree with the post - PM me. If you hate it - PM AV8OR!

Nice!!! LOL

 

[DC8CRIVER]

DC8criver – as far as opening a foreign domicile, I know purple is trying to open Hong Kong and Paris, even though I was told by a Purple driver the other day that Paris was cancelled, not sure for how long… I haven’t heard of Brown trying to open a foreign domicile except a sorting facility in Shanghai. I wish we did have a foreign domicile and I’d bid one in a heartbeat, maybe one day it’ll happen…

Just imagine if the three largest cargo airlines’ unions were to join forces – a purple/brown/yellow alliance – sure the resulting color would look ugly as hell but talk about negotiating power…

Also, just to clarify in case I get erroneous PMs again - AV80R (me) is a UPS driver while AV8OR is an Astar driver (I think?).
So if you agree with the post - PM me. If you hate it - PM AV8OR!
[/QUOTE]


AV80R,

Lord knows, Astar will never see a foreign domicile. Heck, we don't even have a second DOMESTIC domicile!

Yes, combined union would be great. So would a nationwide seniority list created with a 20 year fence just to get us all used to the idea for a while before it lifts - but I can't see any of those things happening.

In ILN, there are two airlines with one common foe - DHL. After two years of fighting a two fronted war, DHL still has the upper hand because, like the North and the South, the pilots in blue and the pilots in grey are nowhere near being able to work together much less combine their unions.

And no worry about the AV8OR/0R thing. I know AV8OR and surprisingly, he looks just like his avitar - except for he's about a foot shorter, has alot of hair on his nose, and a horse kicked out most of his teeth. And, from his accent, I think he is a real New England Blue Blood Country Club Type (and I hear that sometimes he cross dresses when he's in the left seat of the cockpit). But other than that, he's just a regular guy like you and me.

DC8

 

[AV8OR]

I know AV8OR and surprisingly, he looks just like his avitar - except for he's about a foot shorter, has alot of hair on his nose, and a horse kicked out most of his teeth. And, from his accent, I think he is a real New England Blue Blood Country Club Type (and I hear that sometimes he cross dresses when he's in the left seat of the cockpit). But other than that, he's just a regular guy like you and me.

DC8

Hey thanks DC8!!!! You know I'm not a foot shorter!!!
I'm just sayin'!! ;^>

 

[AV80R]

... And no worry about the AV8OR/0R thing. I know AV8OR and surprisingly, he looks just like his avitar - except for he's about a foot shorter, has alot of hair on his nose, and a horse kicked out most of his teeth. And, from his accent, I think he is a real New England Blue Blood Country Club Type (and I hear that sometimes he cross dresses when he's in the left seat of the cockpit). But other than that, he's just a regular guy like you and me. DC8

:laugh:​

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Hey thanks DC8!!!! You know I'm not a foot shorter!!!
I'm just sayin'!! ;^>[/QUOTE]


OK, OK, OK ... I'm just busting your chops. You really DO look like Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore. But all the other stuff is true ",')

 

[erichartmann]

[/quote]

...In ILN, there are two airlines with one common foe - DHL. After two years of fighting a two fronted war, DHL still has the upper hand because, like the North and the South, the pilots in blue and the pilots in grey are nowhere near being able to work together much less combine their unions....
DC8 [/quote]


Ahhh, but unlike the previous blue/grey conflict this time blue fired the first shot. BTW, more like 5 years.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't the diminishing customer base. We all seem to have a sense of desperation regarding our survival in this game of musical chairs. If DHL knew how to play the game and were actually growing we might not be at each other throats.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Ahhh, but unlike the previous blue/grey conflict this time blue fired the first shot. BTW, more like 5 years.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't the diminishing customer base. We all seem to have a sense of desperation regarding our survival in this game of musical chairs. If DHL knew how to play the game and were actually growing we might not be at each other throats.[/quote]


Erich -

You are right - it has been more like five years. And correct, too, about the lack of growth being the nutrient for the infection.

I guess we'll never see eye to eye on the scope issue. When we "fired the first shot" it was aimed directly at our employer - Astar/DHL - not at ABX. Had we been successful with our case against Astar/DHL, there really would have been very little chance of ABX pilots loosing their jobs; more likely a merger or a buy out or some negotiated settlement.

There may come a time that ABX pilots take aim at their own employer over scope issues. With the current situation involving ABX/ATI/CCIA that time may come soon and I hope you are able to enforce your contract. We were not able to and not only lost significant potential growth but incurred the your wrath as well which, it seems, will never be resolved.

DC8

 

[erichartmann]

double post

 

[erichartmann]

Ahhh, but unlike the previous blue/grey conflict this time blue fired the first shot. BTW, more like 5 years.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't the diminishing customer base. We all seem to have a sense of desperation regarding our survival in this game of musical chairs. If DHL knew how to play the game and were actually growing we might not be at each other throats.

Erich -

You are right - it has been more like five years. And correct, too, about the lack of growth being the nutrient for the infection.

I guess we'll never see eye to eye on the scope issue. When we "fired the first shot" it was aimed directly at our employer - Astar/DHL - not at ABX. Had we been successful with our case against Astar/DHL, there really would have been very little chance of ABX pilots loosing their jobs; more likely a merger or a buy out or some negotiated settlement.

There may come a time that ABX pilots take aim at their own employer over scope issues. With the current situation involving ABX/ATI/CCIA that time may come soon and I hope you are able to enforce your contract. We were not able to and not only lost significant potential growth but incurred the your wrath as well which, it seems, will never be resolved.

DC8[/quote]

My wrath, as you put it, stems from several things. I think your "merger, buy out or negotiated settlement" idea was pie in the sky. I can think of other ways it could have played out, all of which would have ultimately cut costs for DHL/DPWN and been to ABX crewmembers detriment. There is also the fact that I felt your initial claim was baseless, though I certainly understand why you did it.

I will probably never forgive nor forget, but now that your group has apparently dropped its claim I would hope both groups can put the issue sufficiently behind them to work together. Given the current climate (no growth) I suspect this will be very difficult.

I continue to hold the belief that our scope problems with our management can be resolved without detrimental impact on ATI and CCI. We all work for what is in effect the same company. This was not the case with Astar/ABX and DHL and in my view makes the cases only superficially similar.

 

[hvydriver]

.[/quote] We all work for what is in effect the same company. This was not the case with Astar/ABX and DHL and in my view makes the cases only superficially similar.[/quote]

This is where you guys don't (or should I say just refuse to) get it. Our grievance was against DHL. Not ABF. It had everything to do with stopping DHL from buying growth instead of doing it organically, as was agreed to in our CBA with them. Hete has now put you guys in the same situation that we were in then. Except there are 3 players in your mix working for the same holding company. And just so you know, the 9th Circuit found in ALPA's favor to overturn the NLRB decision. 3-0. We dropped the grievance because it's more or less moot at this point. I'm going to go back to lurking since all this will be over soon. I'm tired of going in circles with you people. Good luck to all.

 

[FastHap]

I'm going to go back to lurking since all this will be over soon.

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[DC8CRIVER]

My wrath, as you put it, stems from several things. I think your "merger, buy out or negotiated settlement" idea was pie in the sky. I can think of other ways it could have played out, all of which would have ultimately cut costs for DHL/DPWN and been to ABX crewmembers detriment. There is also the fact that I felt your initial claim was baseless, though I certainly understand why you did it.

I will probably never forgive nor forget, but now that your group has apparently dropped its claim I would hope both groups can put the issue sufficiently behind them to work together. Given the current climate (no growth) I suspect this will be very difficult.

I continue to hold the belief that our scope problems with our management can be resolved without detrimental impact on ATI and CCI. We all work for what is in effect the same company. This was not the case with Astar/ABX and DHL and in my view makes the cases only superficially similar.

OK,

I guess we can agree to disagree. I do, however, appreciate the civilized dialog as opposed to what some others post on the boards.

In the end, none of us have chosen this situation that we find ourselves in and over here, we're focusing our sights on our common foe. Right now, we all have more urgent battles to be fought. These days, the enemy of my enemy is my ally.

DC8

 

[hvydriver]

Be careful what you wish for...

No Hap, I'm just tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like Shooter, if I'm done, I'm out of aviation. I've got a job at the Harley shop waiting for me. It's a lot more fun than this is.

 

[shooter]

.

We all work for what is in effect the same company. This was not the case with Astar/ABX and DHL and in my view makes the cases only superficially similar.[/quote]

This is where you guys don't (or should I say just refuse to) get it. Our grievance was against DHL. Not ABF. It had everything to do with stopping DHL from buying growth instead of doing it organically, as was agreed to in our CBA with them. Hete has now put you guys in the same situation that we were in then. Except there are 3 players in your mix working for the same holding company. And just so you know, the 9th Circuit found in ALPA's favor to overturn the NLRB decision. 3-0. We dropped the grievance because it's more or less moot at this point. I'm going to go back to lurking since all this will be over soon. I'm tired of going in circles with you people. Good luck to all.[/quote]


What do you mean "you people"?

imp:

 

[shooter]

No Hap, I'm just tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like Shooter, if I'm done, I'm out of aviation. I've got a job at the Harley shop waiting for me. It's a lot more fun than this is.

Sweet! A&8's?

 

[erichartmann]

This is where you guys don't (or should I say just refuse to) get it. Our grievance was against DHL. Not ABF. It had everything to do with stopping DHL from buying growth instead of doing it organically, as was agreed to in our CBA with them. Hete has now put you guys in the same situation that we were in then. Except there are 3 players in your mix working for the same holding company.

Hvy, you continued to regard DHL as your employer after the airline you work for was spun off. ABX did not continue to regard ABF, now part of DHL, as our employer. We were not part of DHL. We were and are a contractor. You wanted, in your own words, to force DHL, who was no longer your employer or parent company, to grow your seperate airline "organically" and cease doing business with ABX. Again, ABX was never part of DHL. ATI, CCI, and ABX are all part of ATSG. Astar and ABX were not part of DHL. That is the difference.

Our scope makes ATSG the successor company to ABX Holding, which in turn is the successor to ABX Air in so far as our CBA is concerned. Our scope, in turn, requires that the ATI & CCI pilots be on the same seniority list we are on. Your goal was to exclude us. Our goal is to include them. Very very different.

And just so you know, the 9th Circuit found in ALPA's favor to overturn the NLRB decision. 3-0. We dropped the grievance because it's more or less moot at this point. I'm going to go back to lurking since all this will be over soon. I'm tired of going in circles with you people. Good luck to all.

C'mon Hvy, you're being a bit disingenuous here. What the 9th circuit court did was rule in ALPA's favor on the side issue involving the NLRB & Ross Aviation raised by ABX management in an effort to stop your original (6th district if I recall correctly) federal case against DHL. Your original case, as I'm sure you recall, sought to compell DHL to appear at a grievance hearing regarding your scope. The orginal case is, I would guess, now moot since you have given up your claim under your new contract. I say again, we may never know what the outcome of that case might have been. What is clear is that you didn't "win" on your original grievance, at least not in federal court. Only time will tell if you won the organic growth fight.

 

[rotor&wing]

Our scope, in turn, requires that that the ATI & CCI pilots be on the same seniority list we are on.

Good Luck!! Let us know how that works out.