DALLAPA this is fair ?

[FlyingSig]

I'm cool with facts and reality, we need more of that, less of the "my Widget is bigger than your pointer." My specific question was how many are 50 or older? Do we have an updated spreadsheet for both airlines that break it down? Since both groups are not the same size, it would seem to me that average age would not give the whole picture.

As of today, Delta has 2887 pilots over the age of 50 (roughly 40% of the pilot group).

 

[General Lee]

I get tired of hearing this remark. Over 50% of our pilots are 50 or OLDER. Regardless if they leave at 60 or 65, this is a HUGE group from the NWA side that will be leaving en-mass. 10 years or 15 years - it doesn't matter, they will ALL be gone. DAL already had a large group leave to keep a portion of their pension. Those guys got the $ benefit, and the guys who stayed moved up quickly. What percentage of the DAL pilots are 50 or older? Please answer with the number, maybe I'm mistaken on how many are around. I'm sure that if we could have fast-forwarded 15 years we would have new hires on the 757, 747FO, and A-330 just like DAL has been hiring into comparable equipment.

I would be happy to get an instant pay raise. However, the possibly short term pay raise pales in comparison to the seniority bump and associated position/pay bumps that brought me here in the first place. It might surprise some DAL pilots, but some of us that already live in Da' ATL don't want to live there permanently. I don't expect a big windfall from the merger, and I don't believe that most of the NWA pilots do either. But on the other hand, I don't want Lee Moak urinating on me and getting code-a-phone message telling me that it is raining. In no later than 15 years I was on pace to be at 50% on the list because of mandatory retirements - that was a huge factor in coming to NWA. I may be new, but I wasn't born yesterday. I don't expect to be in the exact same position with the combined carrier. But to end up at say 75% or lower at the same point in the future because I was put behind guys from DAL that had nowhere near the same seniority expectations - just because their double-breasted feces doesn't stink - doesn't sit well. Maybe that is not the really the case, but it sure seems like that is what is expected of us.

I hope that all of the negative rhetoric can end soon and we can come to an agreement that will result in a long and successful career for all involved. The truth of what has happened up until now probably lies between what both pilot groups are being told. Maybe we should apply some of that good old CRM - "It's not who is right, it's what is right."

You know what I get tired of? People telling me their career expectations. If I had asked an Aloha 737-200 Capt a few months back what his were, he would have probably told me he would move over to the 737-700 eventually and do SNA and SMF layovers. Guess what? Things happen. You can't predict the future. 9-11, age 65, and high oil have changed everyone's career expectations. What if SUPER high oil next week parked all of your DC9s? Would you rethink those expectations then?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Gunfighter]

Deleted...

The factual data previously contained in this post would have reduced the entertainment value of this thread.

 

[MJ42]

You know what I get tired of? People telling me their career expectations. If I had asked an Aloha 737-200 Capt a few months back what his were, he would have probably told me he would move over to the 737-700 eventually and do SNA and SMF layovers. Guess what? Things happen. You can't predict the future. 9-11, age 65, and high oil have changed everyone's career expectations. What if SUPER high oil next week parked all of your DC9s? Would you rethink those expectations then?


Bye Bye--General Lee

You told me on another thread new hire DAL pilots should be senior to me because of career expectations. Also, NWA 9 pilots should be furloughed (if a furlough happens, which is unlikely in my opinion) if 9's are parked because DAL new hires never EXPECTED to fly the 9.

GL, I'm one of the few who think you have substance to add to FI (if you read between your sarcasm). But, most of us want this merger to succeed. We also want a FAIR SLI. Having pride in your company is great. Please tone down your Delta rhetoric, for we(NWA +DAL) are ALL Delta now!:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

NWA wants credit for "options" on airplanes that never be excercised.

They seem to forget that they would probably get raises totalling 25-30% (their current scales to our current scale plus our LOA 19 scale which gives DAL bubbas raises of 17% by 2012).

They also forget that NWA management is planning to park their entire DC-9 fleet and 747-200 fleet. Delta will only park the older DC-9s for the time being.

Whine all you want but w/o DAL, you'll ber working for much less and furlough a bunch of pilots when the 9s and -200 go to Arizona.

Looks like you need this more than we do

From your guys,

Industry Issues ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. I thought Delta’s standalone plan was sound. Why do we "need" to merge now? [/FONT]

​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Delta does have a standalone plan that will leave better positioned than most carriers in the industry. However, this plan will most likely be unable to generate the cash flow that Delta will need to repay the secured debt leftover from the post-9/11 borrowing binge, fund their fleet growth for international expansion, and still continue to fund the improvements in pay, working conditions, and retirement that we will expect into the future. This merger will allow Delta to complete their plans for international expansion much sooner than a standalone plan will. This international expansion, along with our Joint Venture with Air France/KLM will give Delta the revenue diversification and the global reach that will ensure our company becomes a dominant player in a rapidly changing industry. [/FONT]​

 

[another cfii]

Just posting a question (no flamebait intention). So part of the reason why DAL wants to merge with someone is known, how about NWA's? Why does Steenland keeps saying that nwa needs to merge with someone as well? Besides he wants his 20+ mil to retire on.

NWA has one of the better cash position in any legacies right now, why the BOD insists on finding a dance partner now? I haven't heard too much about nwa's standalone plan if this merger doesn't come to fruition.

 

[General Lee]

You told me on another thread new hire DAL pilots should be senior to me because of career expectations. Also, NWA 9 pilots should be furloughed (if a furlough happens, which is unlikely in my opinion) if 9's are parked because DAL new hires never EXPECTED to fly the 9.

GL, I'm one of the few who think you have substance to add to FI (if you read between your sarcasm). But, most of us want this merger to succeed. We also want a FAIR SLI. Having pride in your company is great. Please tone down your Delta rhetoric, for we(NWA +DAL) are ALL Delta now!:beer:

I don't think I said you should be below our newhires because of "career expectations", rather if the top 300-400 are all 744 senior Captains, (because of their plane--a la USAir), then the bottom 300-400 should be NWA DC9 FOs and 742FEs. That seems more realistic, and our guys should not be furloughed because we somehow park DC9s sooner than expected, and they had never even touched or thought of touching a DC9. That seems fair too. If there is an eventual fence around the 744s, maybe there should be one around the DC9s too.

As far as my Delta rhetoric, I call it like I see it. Hey, I want a strong airline too, and I think there are some inequities that you guys don't see. I would also like a fair SLI, remembering that our early retirements came along with aircraft parkings (MD11s, 762s, 737s), something that you guys haven't seen as much of. We have a lot to offer each other, but you are right, it has to be fair, and it looks like an arbitrator will be the one deciding it unfortunately. That is too bad. But, I bet you will look great in your Russian Sub Commander uniform. Chicks dig it. Don't forget the hat!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Looks like you need this more than we do

From your guys,

Industry Issues ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. I thought Delta’s standalone plan was sound. Why do we "need" to merge now? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Delta does have a standalone plan that will leave better positioned than most carriers in the industry. However, this plan will most likely be unable to generate the cash flow that Delta will need to repay the secured debt leftover from the post-9/11 borrowing binge, fund their fleet growth for international expansion, and still continue to fund the improvements in pay, working conditions, and retirement that we will expect into the future. This merger will allow Delta to complete their plans for international expansion much sooner than a standalone plan will. This international expansion, along with our Joint Venture with Air France/KLM will give Delta the revenue diversification and the global reach that will ensure our company becomes a dominant player in a rapidly changing industry. [/FONT]​

We could have easily pulled a "jetblue" with Air France, and they would have given us a load of cash (cheap for the with the Euro vs Dollar), for some equity. That could have paid off a chunk of that debt. They even offered us cash to help buy you guys. Viva la France Pepe Le Pue.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

.....................

 

[jetflier]

We could have easily pulled a "jetblue" with Air France, and they would have given us a load of cash (cheap for the with the Euro vs Dollar), for some equity. That could have paid off a chunk of that debt. They even offered us cash to help buy you guys. Viva la France Pepe Le Pue.

Bye Bye--General Lee

HUH ?

No news here,....keep moving,...

The Generals toasted again .

 

[Superpilot92]

We could have easily pulled a "jetblue" with Air France, and they would have given us a load of cash (cheap for the with the Euro vs Dollar), for some equity. That could have paid off a chunk of that debt. They even offered us cash to help buy you guys. Viva la France Pepe Le Pue.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL your statement has nothing really to do with what i posted. You skirted the facts, ....again You guys NEED NWA more than we NEED DAL. My post was meant towards the DAL guys who were trying to say we NWA pilots should just be "happy" to get a raise and not get furloughed

Bottom line is both companies bring alot to the table

 

[Noserider76]

Looks like you need this more than we do

From your guys,

Industry Issues ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. I thought Delta’s standalone plan was sound. Why do we "need" to merge now? [/FONT]

​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Delta does have a standalone plan that will leave better positioned than most carriers in the industry. However, this plan will most likely be unable to generate the cash flow that Delta will need to repay the secured debt leftover from the post-9/11 borrowing binge, fund their fleet growth for international expansion, and still continue to fund the improvements in pay, working conditions, and retirement that we will expect into the future. This merger will allow Delta to complete their plans for international expansion much sooner than a standalone plan will. This international expansion, along with our Joint Venture with Air France/KLM will give Delta the revenue diversification and the global reach that will ensure our company becomes a dominant player in a rapidly changing industry. [/FONT]​

Not sure how you read DL needs NW more than NW needs DL out of that. Who knows what NW would have needed to be a competitive force in the future. Gapping holes in Europe and Latin America, big fleet replacement issues, and large investments in domestic IFE to name a few. I don't think either of us needed the other at all but if it's done right we may all benefit from a stable, profitable company that can pay us what we deserve.

 

[On Your Six]

GL your statement has nothing really to do with what i posted. You skirted the facts, ....again You guys NEED NWA more than we NEED DAL. My post was meant towards the DAL guys who were trying to say we NWA pilots should just be "happy" to get a raise and not get furloughed

Bottom line is both companies bring alot to the table

Why does Delta need NWA? In the near term Delta will be receiving numerous 777s that could easily reach Asia in the future (overfly NRT). Delta does not need your NRT hub to succeed in Asia - sure, having access to it would be a good revenue source but it doesn't absolutely require it to succeed. Every 777 that is added going forward will be a money-maker for Delta on international routes including those to Asia.

The only person who NEEDS anything is Steeland - your CEO needs his $22 million bonus to buy his own lake near St. Cloud. Maybe he'll invite you and your pals to his flashy new pad later.

 

[Superpilot92]

Why does Delta need NWA? In the near term Delta will be receiving numerous 777s that could easily reach Asia in the future (overfly NRT). Delta does not need your NRT hub to succeed in Asia - sure, having access to it would be a good revenue source but it doesn't absolutely require it to succeed. Every 777 that is added going forward will be a money-maker for Delta on international routes including those to Asia.

The only person who NEEDS anything is Steeland - your CEO needs his $22 million bonus to buy his own lake near St. Cloud. Maybe he'll invite you and your pals to his flashy new pad later. Oh you mean like Moak and his mgmt parties?

I will repost just in case you missed it Those aren't my comments those our YOUR companies comments.

Industry Issues ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. I thought Delta’s standalone plan was sound. Why do we "need" to merge now? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Delta does have a standalone plan that will leave better positioned than most carriers in the industry. However, this plan will most likely be UNABLE to generate the cash flow that Delta will need to repay the secured debt leftover from the post-9/11 borrowing binge, fund their fleet growth for international expansion, and still continue to fund the improvements in pay, working conditions, and retirement that we will expect into the future.This merger will allow Delta to complete their plans for international expansion much sooner than a standalone plan will. This international expansion, along with our Joint Venture with Air France/KLM will give Delta the revenue diversification and the global reach that will ensure our company becomes a dominant player in a rapidly changing industry. [/FONT]​

 

[Noserider76]

I will repost just incase you missed it Those arent my comments those our YOUR companies comments.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Delta does have a standalone plan that will leave better positioned than most carriers in the industry. However, this plan will most likely be UNABLE to generate the cash flow that Delta will need to repay the secured debt leftover from the post-9/11 borrowing binge, fund their fleet growth for international expansion, and still continue to fund the improvements in pay, working conditions, and retirement that we will expect into the future.[/FONT]

There's at least 3 items in there, bud. Is it surprising that with fuel at 120 they would not be able to do all three? You can be sure the debt would be taken care of but if oil stays where it is or goes up nobody's going to do anything but tread water at best. NW alone would have been in the same boat or worse considering the fleet issues.