CAL/UAL merger statistics

[CRJ's suck]

Found this CAL/UAL merger info on another website.
Although I don't know how much of it is factual, it's pretty interesting reading none the less.

Sorry, I meant "possible" merger between CAL/UAL.

 

[LJDRVR]

Interesting comparison. The one thing that's changed is that Continental now has a larger market cap, effectively putting us in the driver's seat if this merger goes down.

 

[Mr.B]

Interesting comparison. The one thing that's changed is that Continental now has a larger market cap, effectively putting us in the driver's seat if this merger goes down.

Spoken like a true USAir Eastie.

 

[LJDRVR]

Spoken like a true USAir Eastie.

Spoken like a true ass.

I actually want to see a fair integration of our two seniority lists if this poop sandwich goes down. I want our management in the driver's seat because your airline's "leadership" couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper sack.

Thanks for the random insult, though.

 

[Soulfly]

A fair integration of the AWA/AAA seniority list already occured.

OK, I know USAPA will impose DOH, because thats just the way it is supposed to be.

You all knew DOH was not part of ALPA meger policy, so why did you legally agree to the process?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

let's just get it done and be fair...people will have their toes stepped on oh well life goes on.

 

[contrail67]

Found this CAL/UAL merger info on another website.
Although I don't know how much of it is factual, it's pretty interesting reading none the less.

Sorry, I meant "possible" merger between CAL/UAL.

Thanks for the post...

 

[Max Powers]

Spoken like a true ass.

I actually want to see a fair integration of our two seniority lists if this poop sandwich goes down. I want our management in the driver's seat because your airline's "leadership" couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper sack.

Thanks for the random insult, though.

Based on your previous comments you seem to careless about fairness and use Market Cap as a sole determiner of who should be more senior. I have no dog in this fight but based on UAL performance and dark future I would put CAL way above you guys in most aspects.

 

[motch]

How about we go back to the good old ways of the US of A...

Capitalism.

If an airline can not be run to the point of sustainability... it goes out of business.

After that, there is an acquisition of assets. Whoever wants to buy the piece, so be it.

Look, I'm all for helping out fellow Union Brothers and Sisters. But there also comes a time where you have to realize that people need to play the hand that they are dealt.

If the CAL/UAL merger were to happen, and the CAL work rules were applied, there will be furloughs. I'm out on the street. While a UAL pilot still has his job. How is that fair when my company was holding it's head above water while the competition was drowning before the merger?

 

[Ben Franklin]

How is that fair when my company was holding it's head above water while the competition was drowning before the merger?

The competition didn't have an 83-85 year old life preserver?




Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Jonny Sacko]

bud dum pisshhhhhhh. I'll give ya that. Funny

 

[AWACoff]

No, the competition had an 86-87 year old life preserver.

Easy solution. Staple all scabs and make them pay their back dues.

 

[Andy]

Interesting comparison. The one thing that's changed is that Continental now has a larger market cap, effectively putting us in the driver's seat if this merger goes down.

That didn't last long. Market cap = price/share x shares outstanding. Using today's closing prices:
CAL= $16.04 x 98.00M = $1.57B
UAUA = $13.95 x 118.99M = $1.66B

Does this mean that, as of today, UAUA is back in the driver's seat? Market cap is not a measure of who's in charge of a merger.

You're also ignoring the fact that due to the DAL/NWA merger, CAL is going to be effectively frozen out of SkyTeam. In order for them to continue to expand internationally, they need to join the Star Alliance or One World.
Ask Kellner or any of the rest of CAL senior management how much they're concerned over their future in SkyTeam.

 

[Mr.B]

That didn't last long. Market cap = price/share x shares outstanding. Using today's closing prices:
CAL= $16.04 x 98.00M = $1.57B
UAUA = $13.95 x 118.99M = $1.66B

Does this mean that, as of today, UAUA is back in the driver's seat? Market cap is not a measure of who's in charge of a merger.

You're also ignoring the fact that due to the DAL/NWA merger, CAL is going to be effectively frozen out of SkyTeam. In order for them to continue to expand internationally, they need to join the Star Alliance or One World.
Ask Kellner or any of the rest of CAL senior management how much they're concerned over their future in SkyTeam.

Good post.

 

[LJDRVR]

Based on your previous comments you seem to careless about fairness and use Market Cap as a sole determiner of who should be more senior. I have no dog in this fight but based on UAL performance and dark future I would put CAL way above you guys in most aspects.

???

Max, your reading comprehension needs some work. I don't believe I've ever posted anything related to market cap and I work for CAL.

Regarding who's going to be in control, my choice is for Continental to run the show. Not because I think that will enable our pilot group to come out on top, but because our management team actually knows how to run an airline. (Don't anybody get their panties in a wad, that's a true statement and I'm not insulting line United employees, but their criminally inept "leaders".)

A combined UAL/CAL with Larry Kellner and Jeff Smisek at the helm, would be the world's largest airline, with the best route structure and network. Although the process would be very painful, our combined airline would be the proverbial 800 pound Gorilla. (Not only the biggest, but the only one with a real plan and the ability to compete and win.)

As far as the seniority list integration goes, we can get ourselves all worked up with the details, but a deal hasn't been announced yet and I'm confident that if it is, our MEC's will come to a solution where nobody gets hosed too badly.

I would love to see a group of United pilots with the opportunity to again work at a carrier where they can be proud of the product and their leaders. I think the influx of their pilots and culture would make this a better place to work than it already is. I would be proud to share a cockpit with any of y'all. (I'm just hoping it doesn't happen, I like CAL the way it is, and I'd like to get our contract fixed.)

Tilton needs to go away with nothing but his last paycheck withheld and a restraining order.

PS - Whoever said staple the SCABS? Very interesting.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Hey Andy,

Are you in contact with any of your MEC on property, wondering about furlough numbers, IF ANY? Hopefully none, but IF the merger goes on, I'd imagine the #'s would be split on both sides. Just wondering, I saw you thought you'd be out next year. I hope NONE comes to fruition, but if Prater has his way, we'll all have to give back 40% and work all FAR's, no work rules, along with furloughing everyone EXCEPT his greedy friends? Thanks

 

[Fox-Tree]

Maybe there's one silver lining.
At least now the CAL scabs who have gotten a pass all these years will get to work side by side with members of one of the more militant ALPA pilot groups. Plenty of names to add to the UAL "list". Never forget.

 

[LJDRVR]

How is that fair when my company was holding it's head above water while the competition was drowning before the merger?

It's not, which is why integration should heavily favor career expectations. I'm pretty none of the recently hired pilots at UAL expect to upgrade within five years.

 

[MountainFreak]

It's not, which is why integration should heavily favor career expectations. I'm pretty none of the recently hired pilots at UAL expect to upgrade within five years.

Your (and our) career projections from 6 months ago are worthless now. Just the way it is. Not saying Continental doesn't have better prospects than UA, but I promise you will be looking at cancelled orders, block hour decrease, and maybe even furloughs. We all are.

Your argument reminds me of what we felt at UA when USAir was announced only 8 yrs ago. We had 2.5 yr Captains. Our ESOP money was going to be used to buy a floundering carrier, and it would hurt our own advancement.

We felt angry, because we were so smart to be at our carrier, and they were obviously fools to be at theirs. (Sarcasm intended).

Just asking that you look at history; many of the great airlines are now dust. Don't think that the same won't happen at Continental, or even Southwest for that matter. So, be careful when you say that you should get the better end of the deal because Continental is "stronger".
Karma is a b!tch, and she always comes back around...

 

[LJDRVR]

Karma is a b!tch, and she always comes back around...

I bring up career expectations and now I'm in for a heap of bad juju?

Read my post carefully, Sir. I was very tactful, the only thing I said that was the least bit conceited is that we are better run. (Which is true, and believe me, I know it could swing the other way.) I said several nice things about my peers at UAL.

I'm a historian of our profession and am well aware what could happen to any of us.

How about we quit taking potshots at each other, when management is the enemy?

Take Care,

LJDRVR

PS - As far as career expectations go, I'm not sure what you're getting at. We lost 82M 1st quarter, but only because we spent 209M on LHR slots. We may be getting rid of some older 737's, but those are going to be replaced by 800's, 900's and 777's.

 

[Andy]

Hey Andy,

Are you in contact with any of your MEC on property, wondering about furlough numbers, IF ANY? Hopefully none, but IF the merger goes on, I'd imagine the #'s would be split on both sides. Just wondering, I saw you thought you'd be out next year. I hope NONE comes to fruition, but if Prater has his way, we'll all have to give back 40% and work all FAR's, no work rules, along with furloughing everyone EXCEPT his greedy friends? Thanks

No, I don't know what the MEC thinks as far as furloughs. I don't think that they've made any comments other than to blame management. It amazes me how most pilots think that their airline should be making money and expanding like crazy in this environment when everyone's losing money (except Southwest). I view this as a time to hunker down, cut capacity, and conserve cash. We've seen several airlines shut down in the last month and F9 declare ch 11 bankruptcy.
I think that the industry downturn's just starting; there will be others who have problems. And I expect just about every airline to furlough, including CAL.
As for me, I figure that I'll be out on the streets at some point; I don't want to be caught flat footed like I was back in early 2002. At that time, I thought that passengers would quickly return to flying after 9/11. They did over time, but I didn't count on the fire sale ticket prices which caused most airlines to hemorrage money.
I don't know how many pilots will find themselves furloughed, but I can see where, with near zero retirements (UAL's had a total of 4 retirements in the Jan-Mar timeframe), there will likely be more furloughs this time than post-9/11.

As for age 65, I thought that we'd be OK with it attached to the FAA Reauthorization Bill - I didn't expect it to pass. I hadn't counted on the pukes at reston to distort the results of chunky pretard's push poll, voting almost unanimously to change alpo's position. Once that happened, 65 was a done deal. Those ba$tards went as far as to change the verbage of the bill (which was collecting dust) to make it so that two pilots over 60 can fly together domestically.
This Pandora's box is going to end up significantly lowering pilot wages due to the excess pilots out there. The age change is going to result in a lot of extra pilots; a lot of pilots on the street. It's a matter of time before another narrowbody airline or two pops up with sub-Skybus wages. We can all thank chunky pretard and his supporters for the ensuing downward wage spiral.

 

[Andy]

It's not, which is why integration should heavily favor career expectations. I'm pretty none of the recently hired pilots at UAL expect to upgrade within five years.

Are you expecting different at CAL? Heck, how many upgrades TOTAL do you expect to see in the next 5 years at CAL?
Word is that Captain's bids are being cancelled there. True or not?

I posted previously that CAL had a large training pipeline; it was necessary due to all of the seat changes. Very reminiscent of USAirways back in 99/00. Once the music stopped at Airways, they were overmanned. Hiring's stopped at CAL; are you sure you aren't overmanned?
Isn't CAL starting to offer COLAs for pilots? For those that don't know, COLA is Company Offered Leave of Absence.

If you want to talk career expectations, have you compared ratios of widebodies at each company? Have you considered what will happen to CAL's international expansion plans now that DAL and NWA are merging? I don't think that you understand how this will negatively impact CAL's SkyTeam revenues.

 

[flygirlqt]

Maybe there's one silver lining.
At least now the CAL scabs who have gotten a pass all these years will get to work side by side with members of one of the more militant ALPA pilot groups. Plenty of names to add to the UAL "list". Never forget.

Do you mean the same militant group that voted to terminate the pensions of their retired brothers and sisters who built the company? Is this the same militant group of pilots that took two concessions through bankruptcies? And finally, this is the same militant group of union pilots that sold their brothers out at Frontier in the 80's?

The line between scabs and opportunists has grown very blurry over the years. I guess militant is applicable when it serves to benefit ones own interests.

 

[MountainFreak]

I bring up career expectations and now I'm in for a heap of bad juju?

Read my post carefully, Sir. I was very tactful, the only thing I said that was the least bit conceited is that we are better run. (Which is true, and believe me, I know it could swing the other way.) I said several nice things about my peers at UAL.

I'm a historian of our profession and am well aware what could happen to any of us.

How about we quit taking potshots at each other, when management is the enemy?

Take Care,

LJDRVR

PS - As far as career expectations go, I'm not sure what you're getting at. We lost 82M 1st quarter, but only because we spent 209M on LHR slots. We may be getting rid of some older 737's, but those are going to be replaced by 800's, 900's and 777's.

I think you read my post wrong, or maybe I wasn't clear. I have never taken your posts like you were one of the forum know-it-alls.

Yes, CO is MUCH better run than UA. If a merger happens whether we want it or not, then we need to do anything possible to make sure CO people are in charge.

I was just saying that career expectations are a nebulous thing. For example, we lost over 500 million last quarter, but "only" because we have idiots in charge that paid out 250 million in dividends.
So, we have to be very careful that any pain is not taken disproporionately from only one carrier. If furloughs happen, why should they only come from UA? CO is in a bad way too, and big growth plans from even a few months ago don't count in the calculations.

Finally, if a merger happens, I actually believe our pilot groups will be able to come to much better terms than AWA/US, or DL/NWA. Why? because we have seen the top and the bottom in such a short span we have the big picture. Despite the fact many people on this forum seems to hate UA, the truth is everyone I fly with is normal, not arrogant, and a lot of fun on layovers. We won't be looking for something that isn't ours.

 

[flygirlqt]

Good lord it has already started and there is nothing even announced! Career expectations this, you are flying that, your orders are not what ours are, we have this and you don't, let's staple these guys to the bottom, you are losing more money than us etc. etc.

This is going to turn out like every other one of the clusters that are synonymous with ALPA mergers. All fake smiles while each group holds the knife waiting to dig it deeper in the others back.

The face of unity within ALPA is nothing but a facade as we are all looking like spoiled children. It is really getting embarrassing.

 

[LJDRVR]

Despite the fact many people on this forum seems to hate UA, the truth is everyone I fly with is normal, not arrogant, and a lot of fun on layovers. We won't be looking for something that isn't ours.

Exactly. I get the same vibe. (Of course we've got a fair amount of SCABs, but I'm hoping that if a merger is announced, a huge number of those folks will be so scared for their A-fund that they'll retire en masse. One can dream.)

I believe you're absolutely correct about our groups handling integration much better.

As far as Houston running the airline, I think both BOD's are going to insist on that. Tilton can join Lorenzo in the small demographic of former CEO's that get free travel, but have to ask for their soda unopened.

If we do merge, we're going to do very well in the market.

Blue Skies...

 

[saabservant]

Just say "NO".

Do you mean the same militant group that voted to terminate the pensions of their retired brothers and sisters who built the company? Is this the same militant group of pilots that took two concessions through bankruptcies? And finally, this is the same militant group of union pilots that sold their brothers out at Frontier in the 80's?

The line between scabs and opportunists has grown very blurry over the years. I guess militant is applicable when it serves to benefit ones own interests.

This is very observant- let's hope ual's current mec and negotiators do better in 09...
A true measure of your "militancy":
Are you willing to walk away? Are there certain contract standards you won't give on?
If the answer is "No" you get what happened to the ual contract.
NO airline flying job is worth what they gave up in BK two years ago.

And yes, I have experienced it. Was at the table during my own airline's bankruptcy. We said "NO".
They blinked. They are still flying and now growing...

But I got dumber. Am now a ual new-hire, betting on furlough in fall or winter.

 

[SFR]

If UAL and CAL merge...you better believe CAL boys are not going to stand for DOH. There is no reason some UAL FO hired in 1998 should be ahead of a 2005 CAL hire.

You UAL folk should be happy just to have a job. CAL people have better career progression,

 

[MountainFreak]

If UAL and CAL merge...you better believe CAL boys are not going to stand for DOH. There is no reason some UAL FO hired in 1998 should be ahead of a 2005 CAL hire.

You UAL folk should be happy just to have a job. CAL people have better career progression,

No. I'm just happy to have a job where I'll never have to sit next to you.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

If UAL and CAL merge...you better believe CAL boys are not going to stand for DOH. There is no reason some UAL FO hired in 1998 should be ahead of a 2005 CAL hire.

You UAL folk should be happy just to have a job. CAL people have better career progression,

Dude!

Are you serious? Take the iPOD ear buds out of your arse!