NWALPA's response to it's members.....

[Dizel8]

h goody...wonder if this cat-fight is going to get as good as the USAirways one...

I think it will be better, much better!

777's vs 747's, 76's vs 75's, DC-9's vs MD's and 73's. This has sequel written all over it!

 

[Occam's Razor]

So the NWA MEC who routinely excluded Mesaba, Compass and Pinnacle pilots from negotiations that affected their interests is not being totally upfront when crying foul about the NWA MEC being excluded? Gee, imagine that.

Imagine a flow thru without participation by the MSA or CPZ pilots. Imagine it, because in reality...they were involved. The Mesaba pilots ratified it. I know that doesn't mesh with your Pluto-based imagination, but reality is often like that.

I sorry, this is like watching a snake eat a rat. It's ruplusive to witness but it's so facinating, you can't turn your eyes away.

Agree! And if anybody knows how snakes and rats behave...it's you.

The good news is: ALPA once again has a golden opportunity to fix all it's scope problems in that management is somewhat receptive to close this deal.

Hopefully it will result in another stupid lawsuit by the RJDC! Every so often, we need the whiners to experience a judicial smackdown, to remind them that they are losers.

 

[Fly4hire]

Agreed. I raise you that 100 seaters with anything but a NWA or Delta a$$ in them is a no vote. Still haven't seen the language.

That would be a disastrous miscalculation if they went that direction. Hope it was just FI rumors and nothing else.

RA even said in the conference call there is a substantial future in the 100 seat market.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If I were to venture a guess, I would guess that it has already been given the go ahead from the DOJ.

That is a very good guess. Apparently the anti-trust exemption recieved just days ago was a part of the puzzle.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Very hard to do now that DALPA has basically given the finger to the NWA MEC. This was just really bad politics on Lee's part. He should know better. NWA pilots will still be pissed off about this 30 years from now.

I'm not sure where you get that. Why did anyone expect the Delta MEC to sit on its hands and not make use of the tools available to prepare for NWA's arbitration?

The Delta pilots negotiated with Delta management to secure benefits of a merger and set a floor on our upcoming joint contract when the NWA guys come on board. It could be that the joint contract is negotiated before LOA 19 takes effect. It is my hope that LOA19 is replaced by a better joint agreement.

Of course you have my old arguement that Prater will have to sign off on Delta's bargaining, but you and I are not changing sides of the table on that debate, are we? I've been arguing for years that ALPA needed reforms to prevent just this sort of end run that results in a public fight.

I'm hearing the NWA pilots are distrubuting "F U /^\" bag stickers, I hope that is not the case.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You are getting what you asked for, arbitration. You will eventually get it, so why the sour grapes. Are you honestly saying that you don't think the company will give you the same as us when we get an SLI?

No, I'm saying that Lee Moak's very well written letter, describing the DAL pilot's fervent desire to see us achieve contractual parity, would've been more convincing if it'd included the following sentence:

"LOA 19 requires DAL management to bring NWA pilots to parity immediately upon reaching an SLI agreement."

Since we were never allowed to negotiate directly with DAL management at any point during this process, we weren't able to establish transition terms.

I understand the reason the DAL MEC negotiated LOA 19. It made sense under the circumstances. But there's something missing if the goal is truly "parity and harmony". Something that would've matched the stated objectives listed in Moak's letter.

I'm reading the rhetoric, but watching their feet.

Why no "trigger clause"?

Without it, LOA 19 looks like a carefully crafted agreement to apply pressure to NWA pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not sure where you get that.

The Delta pilots negotiated with Delta management to secure benefits of a merger and set a floor on our upcoming joint contract when the NWA guys come on board. It could be that the joint contract is negotiated before LOA 19 takes effect. It is my hope that LOA19 is replaced by a better joint agreement.

That's some good spin, but it probably won't play very well politically with the NWA guys. You couldn't come to agreement on an SLI, so you basically said "forget you guys, we'll get ours and leave you out in the cold." Not a good way to start a joint relationship.

Of course you have my old arguement that Prater will have to sign off on Delta's bargaining, but you and I are not changing sides of the table on that debate, are we?

If Prater was smart, he would have stopped DALPA from even negotiating this LOA in the first place without NWA-ALPA's involvement. But we all know that Prater isn't very smart.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

You know why there is no trigger clause. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute.

The carrot is the joint contract. Hopefully a joint contract renders LOA19 OBE.

But you must understand... Removing pressure from the NWA MEC only would provide them a comfortable existance while they polish their cannonballs to be fired at the Delta pilots at the first opportunity to make a presentation to an arbitrator. Of course the Delta pilots are going to try to apply pressure to get the NWA pilots back to the table and the Delta pilots are going to try to diminish the power of the NWA arsenal that will be fired at them.

This is just common sense.

Coming back to the table and putting your pistols away would be even better sense. Think there is any hope of rational leadership doing what is best for its' membership?

 

[~~~^~~~]

If Prater was smart, he would have stopped DALPA from even negotiating this LOA in the first place without NWA-ALPA's involvement. But we all know that Prater isn't very smart.

FWIW, ALPA National did call everyone in to Herndon a couple weeks ago. But ALPA does not have the internal command and control structure needed to fix the problem. There was (and is) no forum for disputes between MECs to be resolved. This illustrates the point I've been making for years.

 

[General Lee]

This might make a good news headline on the heels of all the maintenance problems (which are nothing but posturing by the FAA) and the endless stories about delays and people being left on airplanes for hours. I frankly don't think the DOJ is going to approve this unless a bunch of assests get sold off.

The other reality is that the two boards of directors and the government will decide the outcome, not any of the employee groups.

Huh? Good guess? There is very little overlap, and even the slots at LGA/DCA do NOT overlap. If they both flew to MCO from LGA, some would probably be given away. NWA only flies to their respective hubs from LGA and DCA on their mainline planes. And, with worsening conditions due to oil, I don't think it would take much to convince many that it is a good idea to merge airlines.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JoeMerchant]

Oh the irony......

Watching ALPA cheerleaders complaign now because a major airline group was left out in the cold....

 

[Sedona16]

Since we were never allowed to negotiate directly with DAL management at any point during this process, we weren't able to establish transition terms.quote]

Occam, this is nonsense. Even in your MEC's letter it says Richard and Ed Bastian sat down with your leaders. They were all ears but your guys simply want too much and blew it. You are normally pretty factual. Please dont start to spin now in your moment of discontent.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So the NWA MEC who routinely excluded Mesaba, Compass and Pinnacle pilots from negotiations that affected their interests is not being totally upfront when crying foul about the NWA MEC being excluded? Gee, imagine that.

I'm sorry, this is like watching a snake eat a rat. It's ruplusive to witness but it's so fascinating, you can't turn your eyes away.

The good news is: ALPA once again has a golden opportunity to fix all it's scope problems in that management is somewhat receptive to close this deal.

The bad news: ALPA doesn't have a friggen clue.

So very true.....This is both sad and hilarious at the same time.....Do you think Herndon even has a clue as to how close ALPA is to the edge....or are they working on more pop up adds to convince me how much I need them.....

 

[PuffDriver]

No, I'm saying that Lee Moak's very well written letter, describing the DAL pilot's fervent desire to see us achieve contractual parity, would've been more convincing if it'd included the following sentence:

"LOA 19 requires DAL management to bring NWA pilots to parity immediately upon reaching an SLI agreement."

Since we were never allowed to negotiate directly with DAL management at any point during this process, we weren't able to establish transition terms.

I understand the reason the DAL MEC negotiated LOA 19. It made sense under the circumstances. But there's something missing if the goal is truly "parity and harmony". Something that would've matched the stated objectives listed in Moak's letter.

I'm reading the rhetoric, but watching their feet.

Why no "trigger clause"?

Without it, LOA 19 looks like a carefully crafted agreement to apply pressure to NWA pilots.

Quite honestly, have you ever thought that it may be the fact that instead of parity, he seeks a springboard with which to gain actually MORE for both groups. Having talked with him several times in the past, I would say that my characterization is more accurate. I don't want a trigger either, I want more pay, perhaps 2% initially. Additionally, I want substantially more DC, perhaps to 14%

 

[IronCityBlue]

Since we were never allowed to negotiate directly with DAL management at any point during this process, we weren't able to establish transition terms.quote]

Occam, this is nonsense. Even in your MEC's letter it says Richard and Ed Bastian sat down with your leaders. They were all ears but your guys simply want too much and blew it. You are normally pretty factual. Please dont start to spin now in your moment of discontent.

Not only that, but its a very good thing pilot group's can't just sit down and negotiate something with another pilot group's management. That would effectively nullify any and all scope (and I'm not talking about RJ scope, I mean the entire section).

That said, this is clearly headed towards binding arbitration. Unless USAPA is sucessful in getting the NIC award thrown out (extremely unlikely IMO) then both parties will be going into arbitration knowing they only have one shot to present their case and an entire career to live with the arbitrator's decision.

I could see the NWA pilots being upset if the Delta pilots negotiated all future holding company new airframes must be added to the Delta certificate or something like that, but that's not what happened. They just got a raise, which the NWA pilots will almost definately get by default, an increased retirement bump, which the NWA guys will automatically get by default (in addition to keeping their frozen A funds) and an equity stake. The equity stake may or may not be given to the NWA pilots, but when both groups were offered a 5% stake, only to have the offer yanked off the table because the groups couldn't agree, I can't blame the Delta pilots for making sure they at least got something.

That said, I think both sides should have agreed to arbitration and taken the original offer for more money. Everyone fears the unknown of arbitration, and for good reason. Its clearly better to avoid it if possible. But avoiding it isn't always possible. When you know its going to happen regardless (and in this case I think that's the reality) then what's the point in fighting (and delaying) the inevitable, especially when delaying it costs both groups tons of money?

In any case, if both groups were smart they would go to arbitration immediately. Its going to happen anyway, and everyone isn't going to be pleased with the outcome (nor will everyone be pleased with a negotiated SLI for that matter) so going to arbitration before either group has any furloughs (if they ever do) would be the smart thing. Like it or not, the NIC award is the most recent precident that heavilly favored a ratio type integration and gave very little consideration to pure DOH. That is the reality and DOH clearly won't be negotiated, and almost definately won't be the outcome of arbitration. But even if both groups see pre merger furloughs of equal percentages, to go into arbitration with one group having furloughs and the other not would lead to exactly the AAA/AWA scenario that is dividing their pilot group and company.

If both sides see the other as completely unreasonable, then that's not very likely to change anytime soon without both admitting they are being unreasonable (very unlikely) or one "caving." If that happened, the end result would be even more bitter than if it came from an arbitrator.

 

[737 Pylt]

So very true.....This is both sad and hilarious at the same time.....Do you think Herndon even has a clue as to how close ALPA is to the edge....or are they working on more pop up adds to convince me how much I need them.....

Quick then, run to the rjdc office and get back under dan's desk. I'm sure he'll be telling you how this deal will make you all $$millionaires again!
I mean, after all, the rjdc did so much for you and the rest of the girls over there!

737

 

[Redmeat]

h goody...wonder if this cat-fight is going to get as good as the USAirways one...

Oh much much better.

You heard it from me first:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1431608#post1431608

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis........The only reason Delta has an agreement is because they are bigger and management will be able to use them to leverage the NWA guys.

 

[Morning Wood]

Huh? Good guess? There is very little overlap, and even the slots at LGA/DCA do NOT overlap. If they both flew to MCO from LGA, some would probably be given away. NWA only flies to their respective hubs from LGA and DCA on their mainline planes. And, with worsening conditions due to oil, I don't think it would take much to convince many that it is a good idea to merge airlines.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I didn't say routes, I said assests.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Since we were never allowed to negotiate directly with DAL management at any point during this process, we weren't able to establish transition terms.quote]

Occam, this is nonsense. Even in your MEC's letter it says Richard and Ed Bastian sat down with your leaders. They were all ears but your guys simply want too much and blew it. You are normally pretty factual. Please dont start to spin now in your moment of discontent.

48 hours prior to the announcement, our leadership met for 2-hours with those gents.

LOA 19 had already been approved by the DAL MEC (Thursday).

Facts.