To Usair/AWA Pilots

[SaturnPilot]

If your so sure that USAPA can't vacate the award, what do you have to worry about??

Your pathetic wages and contract keeping down the rest of the industry for even longer...

 

[SaturnPilot]

Personally I don't see the ROI from alpa that I feel it should be. Aeromedical??? My AME did more work and was quicker than the advice, or what ALPA said. Lobbying???? Is ALPA lobbying really effective?? Or do they just claim victory when one an issue falls the way towards ALPA's stated opinion??? I really didn't see much effect ALPA had on the pension debacle, or getting things changed, Such as the benefit from PBGC to be adjusted for the mandatory retirement age of 60 against 65. Oh, ALPA's answer was to lift retirement age.
How long has ALPA been working on the one pass, or security bypass issue for us???

luckily you won't have to worry about ANY of these issues with USAPA, since those benefits won't exist!

 

[Crzipilot]

You fly an rj and you talk about pathetic wages. I guess you started where ever you are paying 80k a year?? Ya.

the benefits are already there....your talking S**** you don't know.

And uhmmm...look at the pay rates, the west side isn't higher on all equipment if I remember. Whereas your RJ contract is at the highest it's ever been, and the majors are at their lowest they have ever been. Want to guess who's going to go up and who is going to go down???

 

[PCL_128]

He doesn't fly an RJ anymore. Not everyone updates their profiles with every flight hour or type rating they get.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

PHXFLYR -

OK, so you didn't like what I said or something, but can you answer the questions I asked? Specifically:

Didn't ALPA narrowly escape decertification at AWA just a few years ago? What occurred to make you guys almost 100% ALPA supporters?

If the Nicolau wasn't such a huge windfall to you all, then what mighty impressive act did ALPA perform for you all that changed so many minds so quickly?

Also, maybe you can verify soulfly's "facts."

Thanks.

BC

I can answer your question, no it was never even close!! AWAPA was no doubt very upset with ALPA but instead of pushing a very bad and decisive issue unlike the theives of the east, the AWAPA top folks became ALPA reps and MEC chairman!!!

Now you need to understand and understand well! AWA pilots for the most part have always been easy going passive types. Now the unity to destroy usapa at all costs up to and including this company going out of business it'self is very real. I have never seen this group like this and I for one am proud of this display on our parts. Hear and understand my man usapa will spell the end for USAirways and you can bank on that...

WD

 

[Deadalus]

Well if you guys are so sure that the arbitration stays no matter who the CBA is, and what you want is a contract ASAP. Well even with ALPA that won't occur. You see many on the east believe that the arbitration won't stay. Until that is proven wrong they will vote down ANY contract ALPA comes up with. So without both sides voting in a TA, there won't be any combined contract, Unless of course ALPA pulls a quick one and finds a loop hole to get one forced on the east.

In the meantime, if you let the events play out, the east side satisfy themselves (as all on the west have said that Nick ain't going anywhere) that they've exhausted every legal means available to them. After such has happened a contract will come forward. If USAPA is the CBA, it won't require to seperate votes, but one collective vote.
So sit back, let the vote tally come in, and move on from there.

If your so sure that USAPA can't vacate the award, what do you have to worry about??

Who's money do you think USAPA is going to use to try and overturn arbitration that can't be overturned. That's right Einstein, ours. I don't know about you but I'm tired of making lawyers and CEOs richer. Aren't you?

 

[Crzipilot]

and your doing what with ALPA???

 

[becket]

Who's money do you think USAPA is going to use to try and overturn arbitration that can't be overturned. That's right Einstein, ours. I don't know about you but I'm tired of making lawyers and CEOs richer. Aren't you?

If you're an America West Pilot, you're the only one who plans on paying USAPA a dime.

 

[SaturnPilot]

You fly an rj and you talk about pathetic wages. I guess you started where ever you are paying 80k a year?? Ya.

if you want to justify your wages by comparing them to rjs, then be my guest. My point was that you've already passed up at least one large chance to improve your working conditions and pay, but instead have chosen to go the USAPA route...a route that promises the same pay and working conditions for a very long time. A route that delays any pattern bargaining for the rest of us.

All of this talk about getting rid of ALPA because of it's problems is just a front to hide the real motivation...to try to overturn Nic. Life without ALPA around is not going to be different for you at Airways. You will still have Airways pilots making decisions for you, just like you do now.

I'm going to copy and paste some questions that Rez asked regarding USAPA. I haven't seen anybody answer them yet, so if USAPA is so much better, please answer the following:

The opportunity is ripe for management to rid thier company of any pilot representation. What is USAPA's plan to ensure that USAIRways management does not drain USAPA finances and BK the pilots?

What will the dues rate be at USAPA?

It is common for in house unions to have assessments? What is USAPA's policy on assessments?

Will USAPA purchase services from ALPA as does the IPA, NPA, APA and SWAPA as well as many international pilot groups?

What is USAPA's plan for CapHill representation? Will they join CAPA? The only effective pilot group on CapHill is ALPA. Do USAPA pilots accept silence on major issues such as BK reform, pension reform, RLA reform, FFDO legislation, security/airport access, flight time/duty time, fatigue, NAS modernization, NTSB accident/incident investigation, FAA reauthorization bills, etc...

What is USAPA's plan for international issues such as MPL licenses, cabatoge, open skies, etc.. Will USAPA be silent on these issues that will effect USAPA pilots as does APA pilots? USAPA pilots will be forced thru their choice to be silent, like the APA pilots, as ALPA speaks for them.

There is only two organizations that have observer status at ICAO. ALPA is one of them. Are the USAPA pilots ready to forgoe thier voice on international issues, policy and law? Are USAPA pilots international pilots?

What is USAPA's plan to assist and recover a USAPA pilot who has been charged criminally overseas for doing his/her job to the best of his ability? ALPA has a go-plan and network to get ALPA pilots back to the USA within 72 hours of incident. What is USAPA's plan?

 

[Crzipilot]

Well no, I wasn't exactly comparing wages.....so let me help you a bit. I was simply stating that RJ wages are higher and at their highest point, whereas the majors are at their lowest levels. contracts such as America West and jet blue, along with the scope give aways, and the plentiful amount of pilots to fly rj's, were a few blocks to the puzzle of the major's pay scales getting cut down.

Your answers : don't have all of them, but you can check the USAPA web board for most of them.

1.95% initially, ratchet down after a period of time.

USAPA already has loss of license setup, and disability programs, and I believe just got an offer for some life insurance coverage or something. but yes, basically all those benefits ALPA has, so does USAPA it seems.

they have mentioned the ability to join in with CAPA. I can see ALPA has reallllly done alot of work and success getting those duty time fatigue issues worked out. Great work on that security bypass issue guys... Pension work has been just GRAND, as well as lots of movement over the years on that RLA, when was the last amendment to that????


Not sure of the international issues, but it sure as hell can't be any worse than alpa's responses.

Charged criminally overseas, it's been said they have a support network in place or soon to be in place.


Oh yeah, and pattern based bargaining, can't say I've been a big fan of such. ALPA definately likes it. and well while it may have resulted in contracts leap frogging each other, eventually the leap froging became to high, and tumbled twice as low as they ever got high. I'm sure some outside the box thinking on that aspect might be helpful

 

[BeCareful!]

Now you need to understand and understand well! AWA pilots for the most part have always been easy going passive types.
WD

Right, yeah, I understand. So easy going and passive they SCABBED in 1989 below the equator!

I have never seen this group like this and I for one am proud of this display on our parts.WD

Yes, I hear you guys were very open minded and professional at the PHX roadshow. You must be proud, but I, for one, think a pilot group with 27 scabs should think twice before using the term improperly. Shameful.

For what it's worth, I think voting for different representation is very pro union. You guys just don't see it this way because you want super seniority and 1000 furlough protection numbers.

Hear and understand my man usapa will spell the end for USAirways and you can bank on that...WD

Wiskyhead, the fact that you think that scares me or anyone else is almost as funny as you claiming to take the high road on that other thread. You have no idea who you're dealing with, and any pilot who so strongly supports such an obviously corrupt, inept, and ineffective POS as ALPA needs a clue.

You'll see a contract much sooner with USAPA, trust me. ALPA has no way of fixing what is wrong. I know you'll never pay dues, so you won't get to vote on it, but you can thank us later.

 

[Turtle21]

I've met him at the multitude of Herndon brainwashing sessions I've attended.....He is an ALPA cheerleader like you...

LOL! Every barrel of apples has one.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Right, yeah, I understand. So easy going and passive they SCABBED in 1989 below the equator!

That's the best you can do?? You resort to Ansett, something that I'm sure you know nothing about!! Did you know the Ansett pilot walked off the job? Did you know AWA and Ansett were in bed with one another?? Did you know that if a group of pilots quit it's not strike work??? Do you know anything beyond what someone else fed you???? You can learn a lot from that story because the same is going to happen to you. those pilots walked off the job and within weeks Ansett was gone. LEARN and LEARN WELL. Your fate will be very simular...



Yes, I hear you guys were very open minded and professional at the PHX roadshow. You must be proud, but I, for one, think a pilot group with 27 scabs should think twice before using the term improperly. Shameful.

Again you know not what you speak of I would suggest that you do some research into this subject first before you make comments that make you look stupid, just a word to the wise!!

For what it's worth, I think voting for different representation is very pro union. You guys just don't see it this way because you want super seniority and 1000 furlough protection numbers.

No Jr, what we want is what WE read and what WE sat thru and what WE know of the case. You had no interest in the FACTS only your emotion!! There was no windfall for the west in fact we all lost numbers but unlike you we don't cry and get all publically emotional. We deal with it and move on!! The west got a windfall? Please GMAFB!!! My career is in a holding pattern so that you can still collect a pay check! So really who got the windfall there buddy??



Wiskyhead, the fact that you think that scares me or anyone else is almost as funny as you claiming to take the high road on that other thread. You have no idea who you're dealing with, and any pilot who so strongly supports such an obviously corrupt, inept, and ineffective POS as ALPA needs a clue.

Name calling, very typically of you east folks and yes we have been on the high road where you are concerned. We have followed the rules, you haven't we have followed the transition agreement have you??? I am part of that system as I am a sitting ALPA rep a democracy not the self appointing dictatorship that usapa is. You have no plan other that the staple 1900 pilots to the bottom of the list and you think that that's gonna fly with us?? The west not the east has the largest base in all of usair but you get to dictate to us no democracy just usapa rule and that's gonna fly?? What world is it you live in??

Do you have the slightest idea what's happening here or is it just more of the same clouded emotion that's been driving you all along?? If usapa were to gain a win what do you really think is going to happen?? Is it you pipe dream that the west pilots will just fall in line and take it up the tail end??????? Do you really think and I mean really think that Parker is just going to say OK usapa it's DOH now??? I refuse to believe that you are really that stupid although I shouldn't be because history has shown that you are!!!

You'll see a contract much sooner with USAPA, trust me. ALPA has no way of fixing what is wrong. I know you'll never pay dues, so you won't get to vote on it, but you can thank us later.

I'm laughing in my shoes, contract from usapa for who?? You really think that usapa will run a cram down on us and that you will still be employed by usair 90 days later?????? Man you and your brothers really are clueless. Hey man let me give you a piece of advice, start looking for another job...

WD.

 

[Crzipilot]

Hmmm...with the amount of money the west side looses, maybe it will turn to positive cash flow having their airplanes not flying (with the price of gas these days)

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Hmmm...with the amount of money the west side looses, maybe it will turn to positive cash flow having their airplanes not flying (with the price of gas these days)

Who was loosing billions after 9-11????

AWA or AAA?????

 

[Crzipilot]

Not sure the exact figures, do you have it??? Wasn't AWA the first to get the ATSB loan?

What percentage of their flying was affected by 9/11, as compared to the "East???? So many flights in and out of DCA for the West side wasn't there?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Hmmm...with the amount of money the west side looses, maybe it will turn to positive cash flow having their airplanes not flying (with the price of gas these days)

And you get this from where??? You know it's funny to me to hear "the east is the one making all the money" if you had such a good product BEFORE why were you in back to back BK's??????????????????

The company as a whole is making money and the management team doesn't seperate the sides only we low level employees do that! The company records profit and loss as ONE!!! Get it yet???

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Not sure the exact figures, do you have it??? Wasn't AWA the first to get the ATSB loan?

What percentage of their flying was affected by 9/11, as compared to the "East???? So many flights in and out of DCA for the West side wasn't there?

And your point is what?? Look bro with your extensive 2.5yrs of active service then off to fly rj's via j4j as the east was fast becomming a regional carrier. Obviously you are clueless and in need of some facts. Stop talking or rather posting and educuate yourself FIRST then come back and post.

WD.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Not sure the exact figures, do you have it??? Wasn't AWA the first to get the ATSB loan?

What percentage of their flying was affected by 9/11, as compared to the "East???? So many flights in and out of DCA for the West side wasn't there?

I believe AWA was the first to get the ATSB loan. I am not talking about the short period after 9-11. I am talking about quarter after quarter of red ink up until the merger.

Was AWA a power house---No, but It was a pretty good place to work and we had our head above water unlike the place both of us got furloughed from.

I never try to predict the future, but the history at the East post 9-11 was very sad for all involved. The west was hiring, upgrading and taking deliveries of new airplanes.

Trying to merge the seniority lists of these two totally different carriers was a challenge and when placed in a neutral 3rd parties hands you have to live with the results, but the USAPA philosophy reordering the list to DOH and placing a pilot that was unemployed when the merger happened with 2 years of active service ahead of a 9 year west Captain is a real dream. I don't know what I would think if I was still east, but I wouldn't be holding my breath for that kind of land grab.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well can't really say that those of us hired in 99 are expecting to be put in front of a 9 yr capt. Though I guess we are expecting that an f/o that was active NOT to be placed below someone that was on probation or at 1 year or so seniority.....

 

[Crzipilot]

The first comment on the West side not flying, was simply a job....so sorry for the sarcasm.

the 2nd one regarding the ATSB loan was a fact I believe. You got a nice loan from the government. As a total whole, how bad did the post 9/11 comment environment affect AWA's flying, as opposed to the complete shutdown of DCA for how long? did to US..... Yes we both took Gov't handouts... But my answers were in regard to whatever comment that was made a few posts earlier.....

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Well can't really say that those of us hired in 99 are expecting to be put in front of a 9 yr capt. Though I guess we are expecting that an f/o that was active NOT to be placed below someone that was on probation or at 1 year or so seniority.....

Well you may not expect it , but that is what the USAPA Kool Aid gang is preaching. Right now I am in my 5th year on the AWA side and USAPA wants to place you 1000 numbers above me.

The problem with the statement you made above is the less than 1 year guy you mention had accumulated more time in service than you prior to your recall.

An active pilot can not be displaced by a furloughed pilot. Coming in senior on a recall is a displacement.

NIC made his award that both sides agreed to accept the results. Now one side is trying every unethical way known to man to back out of their written contract.

 

[PositiveRate]

I'd like to know Crzipilot and BeCareful have to say about this letter?

You're free to have your own opinions, but when you actively and gleefully try to harm my career and piss away the protections I enjoy from ALPA - well, that makes you a pretty crappy person. I can't believe that anyone with any amount of common sense would think USAPA would provide anything but chaos...for what? Furlough protection so you don't have to fly RJ's again? That's a legal hail mary at best....how can we not conclude this is just pure spite at this point??

As a 12-year member of ALPA, a 5-year First Officer with Alaska Airlines, a pilot with 2.5 years of active service at US Airways/Metrojet, a US Airways furloughee, and a volunteer supporter who walked the informational picket line with ALL US Airways pilots in Phoenix nearly a year ago, I’d like to offer a quick word of support for the professional pilots of the former America West Airlines. I am fully aware of the intricacies of your situation and frankly I am disgusted and appalled at the thuggish, anti-labor assault that is being forced upon you…an assault that is wearing the ridiculously thin veil of “Unionism”.

I understand that the USAPA organizers have come to the flawed conclusion that, “seniority lives in the contract”. We’ll, I have a different perspective on that. In my view, the primary driver affecting East seniority resides in the desert.

More precisely, in the desert surrounding the Mojave Airport in California.

After 9-11, Stephen Wolf and Rakesh Gangwal, the leading executives at the time, parked over 100 mainline aircraft in the Mojave Desert in the months that followed the attacks. Assuming, (as was customary at the time) the staffing requirement of six crews per aircraft. That equates to over 1200 pilot positions that simply evaporated into the hot thin air over Mojave…never to return.

Tragic? Certainly. Painful? Undoubtedly. I felt it personally. However, to make the misguided/malicious leap of logic that this lost East seniority can be blamed on, and regained from, the pilots of America West is confused (at best) and could more accurately be described as simple union busting (at worst).

I am highly sympathetic to the East pilots. I know many great people there and to this day count many of them among my good friends. Frankly, my time at AAA was the best I have ever experienced in this career. However, those 1200 jobs are gone forever. Speculating upon whose fault it was is pointless. I do know one thing with absolute certainty…ALPA didn’t give the order to park any jets and the America West pilots were completely blameless as well.

What’s the bottom line? Career Cancer is non-transferable. Any “union” founded on that singular principle and for that only purpose, has zero chance of success. Failure is simply unavoidable. From my perspective, I cannot believe that so many otherwise rational people are willing to be led by the nose down a path of certain failure and destruction. USAPA has no true plan, no true answers, no true infrastructure, no true financial process, no plan “B”, no history, no set precedents, no history of past practice, no industry support, never been tested in any way, will most certainly be sued into oblivion (BK), and most importantly, absolutely no TRUE way to deliver on all of their mindless; empty promises that have been virtually guaranteed.

These promises have been pledged with total disregard for facts, existing law, Federal processes, common sense or any semblance of critical thought. Perhaps in more familiar terms, there is zero evidence of any form of Situational Awareness being displayed by USAPA. The “big picture” is much larger and far more perilous than is being let on by its organizers.

Blind rage resolves nothing. Blind rage is empty. Blind rage kills rational thought and it will be Blind rage that ultimately buries US Airways. Moreover, Blind rage is the only TRUE component fueling and supporting USAPA. Any type of real substance eludes them.

As ALPA pilots, I’m confident that we all have a stake in this slow moving crime wave called USAPA. Therefore, my total support; both moral and financial, is firmly behind AWA/ALPA in their fight against Tyranny. An internal Tyranny wrapped in the Predatory cloak of a Fake Union. Best of Luck, fight the good fight and withhold no effort to keep the lid on Pandora’s Box. I doubt anyone, East or West, is prepared to live with the multitude of Management Demons will most certainly emerge from it should USAPA impose it’s will. Of course by then, the damage will be self- inflicted and far too late for either side to ever recover.

Hopefully common sense prevails.
xxx xxxxx
LAXFO
Alaska Airlines.

Think long and hard before you submit that vote. If you want to see your leaders away from their own editing and facing what is and will remain the largest US Airways crew base, take a look here. It was a particularly unimpressive showing and that lawyer is nothing but a greedy scumbag who has already ruined thousands of airline careers...for a price he'll do the same to yours and mine if you let him.

http://web.mac.com/dvcapture/USAPA/PHX.html

 

[Soulfly]

Listen to what USAPA says. It is very important.

They want to get rid of ALPA because Nicolau did not follow ALPA merger policy according yo USAPA.

So Nic screwed up, let's get rid of ALPA. That does not pass the litmus test.

But wait, they then continue to say that USAPA's main goal is to get rid of the Nic decision.

When questioned about any other aspect of this new union: contract issues, grievance representation, anything, they have not one answer.

So based on their own statements and presentation, their only purpose is to get rid of Nic's decision.

So, in summary. The only people that are going to make out on this is the lawyers. And of course Doug Parker. Because, I can tell you one thing. I have never seen the AWA pilot group this unified and this pissed off, and we are not going to bend over for one goddamn second.

So, in closing. Good luck to all of us. And btw, all the attrition the East is yelling about just evaporated for 5 years. Brilliant......

 

[Crzipilot]

Well, as other letters have come out. I pretty much don't trust anything unsigned and unverified as to it's origins. As to the grievance and other support functions of the union. Have you happened to go over to the web site, and look at those that have signed on for such issues??? They have short bio's. The majority of them have more years of union work than you do flying. So I think there is some horspower and experience behind this movement. The nic award??? It's a non-issue with me. Did I expect to be at the bottom??? pretty much. Am I proud of what alpa has done, and it's game plane the past 10 years. Uhmmm..no. It's become a behemoth that can't do the bidding of all it's owners.........

 

[BeCareful!]

Mr. Wiskey Driver -

That was quite an emotion-filled rant, for a guy who accuses others of crying in public.

You think ALPA is a shining example of democracy these days? Really? That's got me laughing. Right, if you don't like what the majority likes, just remove the reps that support the majority. Problem solved.

"""I am part of that system as I am a sitting ALPA rep"""

And I'm just learning that you are an ALPA rep. Wow, do you get FPL for all the time you spend here on FI.com "educating" the masses with your thoughtful, professional tone and your unbiased, unifying angles? Our ALPA dues at work.....wonderful.

To all of you who claim to know that USAPA is going to try to staple anyone, I'd like to see it in writing from the union. I've spoken to USAPA reps and have been told, quite clearly, that they are not going to try for a pure DOH integration. The term "reasonable conditions and restrictions" is there to address that, but of course the highly emotional pilot doesn't see or hear that. Anyway, specifically, USAPA won't be asking for more than what ALPA asked for in terms of seniority for junior pilots: LOS. In my case, it's probably less than a few hundred numbers.

Even so, those numbers are NOT why I have already cast my vote for USAPA. It's ALPA's divisiveness, ineffective top heavy structure, and lack of accountability that causes me to see a need for a change.

WD, nothing you spew here scares me. Not in the slightest. So, perhaps for the good of your union, you might want to tone down the Fear Campaign. I say this because, as unlikely as this might seem, there's something you might not know: ALPA here in the East has been spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt for years. We hate this! We hate it almost as much as when the company does it, and it's one of the major reasons there's an election taking place. So your fear campaign here on FI.com really just furthers our resolve to get rid of ALPA. It empowers us, because the thought of ridding ourselves of a guy like you, an ALPA REP (!) who sits at his computer and stirs the pot with rude, divisive, hateful tones and spreads fear.....well, you've just sealed the deal.

Enjoy your last month on the ALPA gravy train.

 

[Prog 2/2]

Hmmm...with the amount of money the west side looses, maybe it will turn to positive cash flow having their airplanes not flying (with the price of gas these days)

Another example of the deep thinking going on in the east.

You might want to review the SEC 10K reports for the airline prior to the financial integration.

 

[Carl S.]

What!! And let financial facts get in the way of financial urban legends. I heard Kirby has "Zanzibar II" all set to go if USAPA wins.
Nothing worse than a 1999 hire who was one of the few who came back a believes they are above others with their 2.5 active service to show! Why did so few return to the glory of AAA after the recalls finished?

 

[Boeing747Driver]

To all of you who claim to know that USAPA is going to try to staple anyone, I'd like to see it in writing from the union. I've spoken to USAPA reps and have been told, quite clearly, that they are not going to try for a pure DOH integration. The term "reasonable conditions and restrictions" is there to address that, but of course the highly emotional pilot doesn't see or hear that. Anyway, specifically, USAPA won't be asking for more than what ALPA asked for in terms of seniority for junior pilots: LOS. In my case, it's probably less than a few hundred numbers.

USAPA stated multiple times the list will be PURE DOH with Fences on Video when they came to PHX. You with your 2.5 years will be ahead of a 9 year west F/O. I suggest you watch the videos to see the clowns that plan to lead you down the dark path.

 

[vetrider]

The biggest clown of all was the lawyer. Even being a west pilot, seeing those videos made me feel sorry for that line up of incompetents.

Removing all emotion, previous slights, chips on the shoulder, etc.(tough I know, but play along if you will), there is no way a rational person would get behind usapa.

Simply pitiful and pathetic.