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Letter of Warning and working at a major.

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How long has it been? LOWs are completely expunged from you records after 2 years. Additionally, they don't show up on PRIA.
 
The letter of warning was for an altitude deviation. The autopilot failed to capture. I just recieved it.

I am on probation at my current airline, so I am afraid to dispute it, although the captain is doing that.

I am curious as to how big of a deal this will be in any future interviews, and if it is worth the hassle (and possible dismissal at my current airline) if I fight it.

I have been told that if I fight it, I will lose the protection from company disciplinary action (aka firing) afforded by the ASAP program.
 
pianoman said:
As long as it's not for checkride problems or training-related, they won't be able to view it anyway.
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Not true! I’ve volunteered in the safety department before and have seen “Notice of Warning” (aka letter of warning) notes in application files when we conducted Pria searches. Pria records will make the letter of warning available to all prospective employers; at least for the duration of the letter (which is usually 2 years).

Once it's expunged it's usually gone; however, if the airline really wants to know, the record of the violation may still be found at the FSDO office which conducted the investigation.

I remember one of our applicants (I worked at a very small regional then) had learned this the hard way. He had been terminated from another regional (Comair or Chautauqua, can’t remember now) about a year prior. He had a letter of warning that was about to expire but he chose to withhold that information hoping they’d never find out. Well, they terminated him after 11 days of ground school. This happened almost 5 years ago now.

To answer your original question – be honest about what happened and it shouldn’t be a problem. Turn it into a “this is what I learned” story. Just don’t lie. Good luck to you.

Also, research your file to make sure it’s even there. John A. Ryan is in charge of the pria program at the OKC FSDO. Contact him to find out exactly what you got on your file. Very nice fellow and he’ll be honest with you.
 
aviator1978 said:
The letter of warning was for an altitude deviation. The autopilot failed to capture. I just recieved it.
I am on probation at my current airline, so I am afraid to dispute it, although the captain is doing that.
I am curious as to how big of a deal this will be in any future interviews, and if it is worth the hassle (and possible dismissal at my current airline) if I fight it.
I have been told that if I fight it, I will lose the protection from company disciplinary action (aka firing) afforded by the ASAP program.
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I posted my previous reply before I saw your last message. It looks like you were part of the ASAP program and after the investigation you were issued the LOW. If so, there’s really not much you can do in disputing it. The advantage of a LOW is that it’s time limited (2 years, sometimes even less), the disadvantage is that once the FAA issues it, there’s no appeal process. My information is slightly dated, 5 years or more, but I specifically remember our POI explaining the difference between a letter of warning, letter of correction, or a plain violation.

Even though you are on probation, I seriously doubt your airline would even consider to dismiss you because if they do, they put the entire premise of the ASAP program into questioning. After all, the idea is for the pilots to come forward when they’ve screwed up so others can learn from their mistakes.

Good luck to you, stay low, stay out of trouble and you won’t have any trouble in the future once it clears your record, and it will.
 
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Thank you for the information, AV80R. The letter of warning is for a 2 year period.

Although I certainly do not want to jinks myself, what would the consequences be if I recieved another letter within the 2 year period?
 
aviator1978 said:
Thank you for the information, AV80R. The letter of warning is for a 2 year period.

Although I certainly do not want to jinks myself, what would the consequences be if I recieved another letter within the 2 year period?
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Good question but I'm not sure what the answer would be. However, it'd be much more difficult for you to use the "this is what I learned" line then... ;)

Also, when infractions are being evaluated, they DO look at your past history. So it's quite possible an identical infraction would've given you a license suspension for let's say 30 days versus a warning letter. After all, the intention of a warning letter is to warn you not to do it again.

It's all a guess, just stay out of trouble now and you'll do just fine!
 
I wouldn't worry about it too much. You try to be as clean as you can, but everyone has a skeleton in their closet. I see that you have 1500 hours total time. I'm not trying to be an arse, but it'll take you over 2 years to get the hours to be competative at a major anyway. So, I'd take the LOW and forget about it in two years. Don't leave the ASAP protection. If you still feel miffed about it, consult an aviation lawyer first.
 
Not true! I’ve volunteered in the safety department before and have seen “Notice of Warning” (aka letter of warning) notes in application files when we conducted Pria searches. Pria records will make the letter of warning available to all prospective employers; at least for the duration of the letter (which is usually 2 years).
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I am almost positive that a LOW issued through ASAP is not viewable via PRIA. I have sat in on the ASAP committee before and this point was made very clear. It is also documented as part of the ASAP program.


EDIT: On reading the document below it appears AV8OR is right. LOW do show on PRIA.
 
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Furloughed80 said:
I am almost positive that a LOW issued through ASAP is not viewable via PRIA. I have sat in on the ASAP committee before and this point was made very clear. It is also documented as part of the ASAP program.

EDIT: On reading the document below it appears AV8OR is right. LOW do show on PRIA.
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Tx for the edit - my information came straight from John A. Ryan - the person responsible for the PRIA program at the FAA. In my previous life I had a chance to talk to him numerous times when we were interviewing candidates at my regional airline and he ‘enlightened’ me on many aspects of the program.
My main point was to be honest – too many people think that they can hide certain things from prospective employers and end up being terminated later. Honesty always prevails – even if a person doesn’t get hired at a specific airline, it’s still much better than being terminated from that said airline further down the road.

A letter of warning is NOT the end of the world if you can learn from it and show them why you’ll never make that mistake again. Better yet, get involved with the training department and you might even be able to teach others what not to do – then use that experience when interviewing at major airlines. We hired some guys/gals at my previous regional who had less than stellar records who turned out to be top-notch instructors. They had no problems moving on to better places.

I can't believe you told him to "stay low".

PIPE:laugh:

Pipe, maybe I should've said "keep a good attitude" instead? ;)
 
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aviator1978 said:
The letter of warning was for an altitude deviation. The autopilot failed to capture. I just recieved it.

...I am afraid to dispute it, although the captain is doing that.
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Sorry dude, the AP is not the PIC nor is it the SIC.

There is nothing to fight. Blame the AP all you want. You both are getting paid to operate and moniter the infernal contraption while it does all the work.

I've gotten a LOW for the same thing. I blame noone or anything but myself for having my head firmly stuffed up my a$$.

If ATC misspoke, or failed to correct an improper readback you may have something to dispute...

Make a habit of calling "1000' prior" before the altitude alerter beeps and confirm alt capture is armed, monitor till capture. Too many crews use that beep to remind them to say "1000 to level," which negates the purpose of the callout and they go back to reading their magazines, chatting, sleeping... go ;)

Good Luck. You shouldn't have anything to worry about. Just don't try to blame it on the AP in an interview.
 
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Consider this nugget of truth. A Letter of Warning is not a finding of a violation. A LOW is simply "warning" you to mindful of a FAR that may have been violated. Your Captain can not fight a LOW simply because once it is issued its already done & again, it is not a finding of an actual violation.

The Letter of Warning is the least action that the FAA can take to close their file. If the Captain indicates something less than a "compliance oriented attitude" the LOW can become a "Letter of Correction" which is a finding of a violation. Of course that is a possible trigger for Certificate Action.

A Letter of Warning, is just that, a warning to be more careful. A safe, compliance oriented, pilot will learn from the mistake and not repeat it. Problem solved for all involved.

In contrast a pilot who "fights" an LOW might need to be taught a lesson. You do not want to be that guy.

Has you Captain talked to ALPA? If so, I'm surprised they would advise him to fight a LOW unless there are some real black and white indications that the FAA made an error (like he wasn't even on that trip).

Just like others wrote, turn this into a learning story and be careful out there. Let me guess, you were in a climb, or descent and were cleared discretion to another altitude and re-set the alterter before it captured. As a technique, some pilots hold their hand on the knob, others let it capture and then set the discretion altitude.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
In contrast a pilot who "fights" an LOW might need to be taught a lesson. You do not want to be that guy.
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I was almost that guy. I was issued a LOW for an altitude violation. Controller says I was cleared to FL 230. Said I blew through it and was told at 23,300 to descend and maintain FL 230. Then he says I went to FL 240 and stayed there the rest of the way from DAL to IAH. WTF? I'm not that stupid. After issuing the LOW, I ask to hear the ATC tape to get some insight to what actually happened that day so that I might learn something. I was told I could listen to the tape afte they retracted the LOW and began certificate action.

I never heard that tape.
 
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AV80R said:
Not true! I’ve volunteered in the safety department before and have seen “Notice of Warning” (aka letter of warning) notes in application files when we conducted Pria searches. Pria records will make the letter of warning available to all prospective employers; at least for the duration of the letter (which is usually 2 years).
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You're absolutely right. I thought he was talking about a disciplinary letter for something like attendance/sick calls.

Even so I would think you could easily sell yourself in an interview if you had a good attitude about it and could show you learned from the experience.

Many guys getting hired at the majors have a few dings and scratches here and there. It's almost impossible not to with all the flying you do at the regionals. The ones who have screwed up once or twice and realize they're fallible are a lot better to fly with, and I think safer than those who think they can do no wrong.

Good luck.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
... The Letter of Warning is the least action that the FAA can take to close their file. If the Captain indicates something less than a "compliance oriented attitude" the LOW can become a "Letter of Correction" which is a finding of a violation. Of course that is a possible trigger for Certificate Action...
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I agree with almost everything you say with few clarifications. The "least action" the FAA can take is to simply close an investigation without a reprimand - happens quite often actually. (you should still answer YES to the question "have you ever been investigated?" - after all, there has been an investigation involved in determining a possible violation – many will disagree with me on this but I’ve been told by J. Ryan (OKC FSDO) that technically there’s an investigation involved even if the investigation is closed.)

Also, a letter of warning (or actually the term they use is “notice of warning") is put squarely on the pilot's shoulders. Letter of correction on the other hand can also be used if the FAA thinks the other pilots at that particular airline might learn something by some additional ground school regarding that specific incident. Then there might be an hour or two of ground school involving a specific subject. Many times the "offender" ends up "teaching" the subject to others. Usually both LOWs and LOCs stay on one's record for 2 years.

I've seen several different investigation scenarios at my previous gig when we did newhire background checks; each time it turned out to be no big deal at all for the person involved if he/she treated it with honesty and with integrity.
 
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You are correct and allow me this observation on your clarification....

After two years, check with your airline's HR Dept. to see what is in your file. At many airlines the secretarys have been told not to destroy the LOW. So even though the FAA has removed the letter, the airline may keep a copy and send it out as part of a PRIA response. If a pilot wants the letter gone, they will often have to track it down and ask management to remove it from their file. Many regional airlines fail to purge HR records correctly.

AV8R is correct that an investigation can be launched without a FAA LOW. I had an in flight emergency and it showed up when I did a background check on myself prior to interviewing. The FAA Airworthiness Investigator complimented my actions as PIC, so it wasn't a bad thing to have come up on an interview.

Best policy is to be honest and to help you be accurate it is an excellent idea to do a background search on yourself before your interview.

You should have no problem.
 
I got one about three years ago for an altitude deviation. Honesty is always the best policy.

I just interviewed and got hired by a major airline and was asked to explain it during the interview. No big deal really and although it goes away after two years, the applications that I filled out during my job search asked if I had ever received a violation, letter, etc...

Be honest and it shouldn't be a big deal.
 
After two years, check with your airline's HR Dept. to see what is in your file. At many airlines the secretarys have been told not to destroy the LOW. So even though the FAA has removed the letter, the airline may keep a copy and send it out as part of a PRIA response. If a pilot wants the letter gone, they will often have to track it down and ask management to remove it from their file. Many regional airlines fail to purge HR records correctly.
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I thought airlines were not allowed to collect and retain administrative actions resulting from submitting an ASAP report?
 
Furloughed80 said:
I thought airlines were not allowed to collect and retain administrative actions resulting from submitting an ASAP report?
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Correct, letters of warnings etc are usually found in the FAA database where they get expunged automatically after 2 years (or less if the letter states that). The airlines however collect investigative reports, etc. and sometimes they put a copy of the LOW in a person's file. It is a good idea to make sure those files are removed once expired.
 
Not true......LOW's issued under ASAP are under another file viewed only by the FAA. PRIA requests DON'T disclose any information inside the ASAP file. That's the whole point of ASAP.....
 
and if the company disclosed a LOW to another employer under the protection of ASAP.......you'd have a lawsuit.
 
whatitdoing? said:
Not true......LOW's issued under ASAP are under another file viewed only by the FAA. PRIA requests DON'T disclose any information inside the ASAP file. That's the whole point of ASAP.....
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Why don't you contact the person in charge of PRIA records - John A. Ryan at OKC FSDO, you'll see that your information is incorrect...

ASAP is a way for the pilots to come forward with information that otherwise they'd be tempted to withold - this way we can all learn from others mistakes.

Usually, the "punishment" is much less seviere than it'd have been otherwise. If a LOW is issued however, whether it's through the ASAP program or not, it becomes a regular LOW thus it will show in a PRIA search. At one of my previous airlines we were told during training that ASAP participants would not have "anything on their records - LOW or not" - I pointed out to my former company that in the past when I worked in the safety department at another airline I noticed that statement to be incorrect. So they checked it with the FAA and now they don't claim this anymore.

In other words, there are no LOWs that are somehow 'marked' as non-reportable just because the offender participated in the ASAP program. These are regular LOWs that for the most part will be on a person's record for 2 years or less.
 
I had a warning letter for flying with a friend, in a plane he rented. The FBO had a temp registration, and it had expired, anyways as highest rated pilot I got the letter. Brought it to their attention at AWA/ And AA interview...when they asked have you ever had any violations....no body seemed concerned and I was hied by both.
 
AV80R, you're mistaken. First of all, I know you never saw a background check with a LOW or LOC in their file that was protected under ASAP. If you're that guy in the FAA, sure, you can see it. But there's a little note that's right by their history indicating an ASAP protected file. They cannot disclose the information even with a PRIA request. That's the whole point of ASAP. Why the hell would you rat on yourself only to get a less severe punishment? So, you'd tell the FAA about your 400 ft bust in a non-radar environment so as to help educate your comrades....only to get a LOW or LOC in your file? Seems fair right?
 

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