ASA DX contract?

[shamrock]

So what is the situation with ASA dispatch and a new contract?

I guess I should be up on the status but I try to leave the airport stuff at the airport so I'm not sure. (Ahh, who am I kidding, I read and post on FI so that theory sure doesn't hold any water!) Anyway, I ask because recently I had a divert situation and my dispather was less than helpful with info regarding bingo fuel, alternate weather, etc. In fact DX was no help, all I could get was one word answers (OK, Roger) when I got an answer at all. I mentioned this to another Captain later and he told me that DX is shorthanded and fed up with the company and performance is suffering as a result. Just curious if that's the case.

Disclaimer: I AM NOT trying to turn this into a pilot/DX argument! I realize that we pilots are no angels and can make your jobs more difficult than need be at times. I'm just looking to find out if I just had an uninterested dispatcher or if there's a larger issue involved.

Thanks.

Flame on.

 

[XPOO]

ASA DX is shorthanded? HAH! That's laughable. But then again, ACARS is a wonderous tool.

 

[shamrock]

ASA DX is shorthanded? HAH! That's laughable. But then again, ACARS is a wonderous tool.

Like I said, I don't know what's going on there, I was just looking to find out if what the other Captain told me was accurate. And yes, ACARS certainly is wonderful, when it's working. Had ours been it would have saved me a lot of trouble.

 

[XPOO]

I guess what I was trying to say is, with ACARS a dispatcher can actually communicate with more than one flight at a time, especially if that person is monitoring 10+ flights at any one given time.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Last I traded emails with anyone over at ASA DX, that person indicated to me (and I may have read incorrectly) that they were finally at a decent staffing level.

I think what XPOO was saying, in his oh-so-lovable sarcastic way, is that pretty much all regional dispatch offices are running lean. And, more and more, it is becoming an issue of being overwhelmed with work when WX/ATC issues start to back everything up. And with function ACARS, it helps with the workload a little.

The average "workable-on-bad-day" workload at the regional level for one dispatcher is around 45-60 flights per shift. That's manageable over a 10 hour shift. However, the more and more short-staffed each office becomes, the more of a workload is being dropped on fewer dispatchers.

With the software we use, it's not incredibly hard to crank out 80+ releases in a shift...and on a severe clear day, that's manageable. The problems arise when you have 20 flights in the air and the weather is taking a crap at half of those destinations. Or worse, a random weather phenomena or air traffic initiative that was completely unpredicted. While I can't speak for our brethren over at ASA, I can say that the dispatch staffing issue is going to become a big problem in the near future.

First of all, it's not exactly a job most people even know exists. While the pay isn't horrible for those who were used to living on ramper wages, it still sucks considering the responsibility of the job. Good dispatchers are leaving in droves because of this...and leaving behind the people who are less than stellar at doing the job the way it should be done. With pride, care, and continued seeking of knowledge to do it better.

As far as your situation that day...it might have just been a tough day. Some days, all hell breaks loose...and when just about every aircraft in your entire operation touches ATL at least once per day...sometimes its hard to keep up. That dispatcher may have had 10 other flights holding and looking for solid alternates and burns, etc. That doesn't excuse the apathy and lack of urgency you recieved from your dispatcher...those little blips on the ASD are the most important thing in your world during your ten hours...but it might give a little insight into what that dispatcher was dealing with.

I say this with sincerity...if you haven't already, go visit the ASA Flight Control office. Even better, try to go on a day where the weather sucks in ATL. See what those guys are doing, talk to them, and see how you can help each other. Despite how closely our jobs are related, we are sometimes so far removed from what each other do, that we forget some of the individual challenges we face daily.

It is all too often forgotten on both sides that we, pilots and dispatchers, need to remember that we are in this together. Dispatch has the largest department size to responsibility ratio at any airline...and the smallest voice. We've always kinda taken pride in being the bastard step-children. But, something is gonna have to give in attracting good dispatchers to the profession.

 

[cksport]

ASA DX is currently at full staffing levels per the Company. However, unless we stay ahead of the bell-curve, we won't be there very long. As far as the contract negotiations are concerned, they are ongoing. I think it should be noted that when flights are holding in Atlanta, it is sometime difficult for each dispatcher to communicate effectively with their crews as the Company frequency gets overloaded because not all aircraft are ACARS equipped and not all of our crews use ACARS in this situation. In addition to the ACARS messaging and radio calls, we are constantly answering phone calls (i.e. DL Radio, gates, wx brief, etc). Our current ACARS interface is not user friendly, web-based, and functions at a speed remeniscent of dial-up. I hope this sheds some light to some other potential issues you could be dealing with.

 

[shamrock]

Got it. It would've been great if we'd been able to use the ACARS, maybe we would've had someone backing up our decision making.

"Dispatch, we're holding at XYZ, EFC 1500Z (it's 1420Z currently), 4800 on the fuel"
"OK"

10 minute later, after several more contact attempts,
"Dispatch, we just looked at our fuel again and we can't hold until 15Z"
"Roger"

5 minutes later: "Dispatch, we've been cleared out of the hold but I'm not comfortable with what we'll be landing at our alternate with if we shoot the approach and have to divert."
"OK"

"Well we're diverting."
"OK"

I realize that I'm ultimately responsible for the decision-making in the air but I scratch my head when when virtually every other flight talking to DX is being fed information on ATL wx, alternate wx, and bingo fuel and all we're getting is one word responses to our inquiries.

 

[shamrock]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I did spend a some time at DX when I was in upgrade and it was definitely interesting to see what goes on on the other end of the mic. Most every dispatcher I've dealt with in my admittedly short stint as a Captain has been very helpful, I was just a little bothered that when I could really use some info to back up my decision making it wasn't available.

 

[WalterSobchak]

"Dispatch, we're holding at XYZ, EFC 1500Z (it's 1420Z currently), 4800 on the fuel"
"OK"

10 minute later, after several more contact attempts,
"Dispatch, we just looked at our fuel again and we can't hold until 15Z"
"Roger"

5 minutes later: "Dispatch, we've been cleared out of the hold but I'm not comfortable with what we'll be landing at our alternate with if we shoot the approach and have to divert."
"OK"

"Well we're diverting."
"OK"

I realize that I'm ultimately responsible for the decision-making in the air but I scratch my head when when virtually every other flight talking to DX is being fed information on ATL wx, alternate wx, and bingo fuel and all we're getting is one word responses to our inquiries.

I believe any dispatcher would back me up in saying this is unacceptable.

Of course, you are ultimately responsible once the wheels are up...but you should never have to be alone in your decision making. We have a responsibility per the FARs to keep you advised and provide any and all pertinent information whenever possible to aid you in your decisions...and when someone is giving you one word answers, someone isn't doing their job...no matter how bogged down they may be.

That said, if the staffing level issues we are starting to see in many offices continue...we may have to call on a larger employee group to get behind us in making changes to our payscales and recruiting efforts. Union office or not, the backup of the people we serve everyday will go a long way in getting where we need to be in order to attract better quality into our dispatch offices and give better quality service to our pilots.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Got it. It would've been great if we'd been able to use the ACARS, maybe we would've had someone backing up our decision making.

"Dispatch, we're holding at XYZ, EFC 1500Z (it's 1420Z currently), 4800 on the fuel"
"OK"

10 minute later, after several more contact attempts,
"Dispatch, we just looked at our fuel again and we can't hold until 15Z"
"Roger"

5 minutes later: "Dispatch, we've been cleared out of the hold but I'm not comfortable with what we'll be landing at our alternate with if we shoot the approach and have to divert."
"OK"

"Well we're diverting."
"OK"

I realize that I'm ultimately responsible for the decision-making in the air but I scratch my head when when virtually every other flight talking to DX is being fed information on ATL wx, alternate wx, and bingo fuel and all we're getting is one word responses to our inquiries.

Messages like this should have been priority #1 (only behind a declared emergency). What I see in my office is alot of new dispatchers getting overwhelmed and starting to deal with problems in the order they get them instead of putting a priority on the problems they need to. This is not excusable IMHO but it doesn't change the fact that it happens. The best thing you can do in this situation is after you land, fill out a flight safety report. Get the problem up front and center. If the safety dept gets enough of these showing the same problem getting hold of a dispatcher they will have to take a look at dispatch work load, before the FAA does.

Fly Safe

 

[shamrock]

That said, if the staffing level issues we are starting to see in many offices continue...we may have to call on a larger employee group to get behind us in making changes to our payscales and recruiting efforts. Union office or not, the backup of the people we serve everyday will go a long way in getting where we need to be in order to attract better quality into our dispatch offices and give better quality service to our pilots.

I'd be happy to support everyone in dispatch if you're having trouble, that's why I asked if there might have been a a story behind the experience I had.

On the bright side, I really didn't appreciate what an asset a good dispatcher can be until I didn't have access to one so I guess I learned something from this.

 

[fltdspx]

even though ASA is at full staffing levels there are two dispatchers that have just been selected as new sector managers and one more is leaving SOON to join the pilot ranks.. so we are back on the way down if the company doesn't stay on the ball. If the past is any indication we will be behind the eight ball for the rest of the year.
I agree with everyone.. on one hand the dispatchers can get overwhelmed especially if your new but never should a dispatcher not be there for there crew especially once the wheels are up. The pay at any connection regional airlines is definitely no what it should be with the responsibility we have. I agree that's why the good and experience Dispatchers are leaving. The computer system is set up for a 10 and CLR day with no delays and we all no that is not the case day in and day out. Why companies what to only staff for a perfect day is beyond me. I wander what it will take to wake up companies like ASA and SkyWest and others out there that just because we are a small group compared to the pilot group we can make a BIG impact on the operation in one day. I mean what would happen to one day of FLTS if 3/4 of dispatchers called out sick. ASA and SkyWest both are making fist full of dollars and it wouldn't hurt them to pay the dispatchers more.

 

[RJAA]

I'd be happy to support everyone in dispatch if you're having trouble, that's why I asked if there might have been a a story behind the experience I had.

On the bright side, I really didn't appreciate what an asset a good dispatcher can be until I didn't have access to one so I guess I learned something from this.

Staffing issue is nothing new and not exactly unique to ASA. The airlines do not build desks based on bad weather days so we should just accept that. On same bad days, any experienced dispatchers could fall behind. It could happen to anyone. Just need to prioritize, and some things will just be late.

So, the problem I saw at a place like ASA was a lack of a chief dispatcher position that supports the entire floor. This is someone who is on the dispatcher's side who manages and supervises everyone's workload, problem flights, provide technical help if needed, maintain the acceptable level of standard by providing guidance where it's required, especially to whom are new at the job. At ASA, the union tossed the idea around a few years ago, but the management said it could not be justified. They didn't care as long as the dispatchers are tap tap sending. And, you have these little sector managers who are just mid level management puppets who shuffles flights all days long and kind of sneak in a few more flights here and there to random dispatchers based on need (not workload), including maintenance ferries (sometimes very time consuming), position flights, charters and burn the dispatchers with write ups and logs if problems occur. And there was also a duty manager who did absolutely nothing all day but walk around with his coffee cup and think about how "not" to cover a sick call and save money by shutting a desk down and dump them all on other open desks because he thought it was managable. It just wasn't a good culture. The moral was down.

Thank God now I work at a place where my co-workers actually steps up to take flights off my desk and if I am running into problems, I can tell the chief about it and he or she will take the responsiblity to reassign flights to mitigate delays before I drown and I start making mistakes because of the pressure. Every sick call is covered with overtime. If one of our hubs is forecasted to go down. An extra desk opens. NOT at ASA.

I welcome shamrock's comments and I am sorry to hear about his/her dispatcher's lack of interest in supporting his flight but the dispatchers come from different backgrounds, shapes and forms. Some are more involved, some do care, and some are more detailed than others, and some just aren't interested. They like to put in minimum work and just tap tap send all day and browse on the internet. For them, the less phone calls, the better. Take a look at another angle, the pilots also do come in different shapes and forms, some do appreciate much dispatcher involvement, some just don't like to pick up the phone and take time to see if his/her dispatcher has anything to say. Some even has been burned before, so last thing they like to do is take the dispatcher's advise. Whatever the fuel amount the dispatcher releases a flight with, automatically add XXX amount, that sort of thing. So it's not easy to determine how all of that communication of joint responsibility should go.

 

[XPOO]

This is a tough situation to comment on, but the dispatcher also needs to be thoughtful enough to try and find a dispatcher that can help you if he/she was already overloaded to begin with. That's called teamwork. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but I do see it happen on almost a daily basis. Some people are just too prideful to ask another dispatcher to help them out.

 

[ASA DX]

Well i havent been to work at ASA in over 18 days, took some MIL leave. I have to get caught up on my bills here at the house and military pays more then my fake ASA job. Moral is in the gutter, new dx's on the floor that aren't even wet behind the ears yet. You have lost all your senior people to other companies b/c our pay sucks. Its just the same thing day in and day out. We haven't had a full pay raise since Feb. 2006 b/c our contract is still in limbo. Wait till our pissy contract gets signed and we lose even more ppl. I would be willing to bet that 80% of our dx's are sitting here waiting on this thing to get signed. And if it isnt what we expect, you will have half the office hitting the door. Thats the day I cant wait for..haha.

 

[fltdspx]

had to delete my post... just thinking about how ASA could give a rats a!#$ about the dispatch group gets not thinking to clear

 

[MaceyHold]

Funny you just edited that last post...my first thought to "how hard is that" is, how many folks answer their phone when caller ID says ASA and there's a line of thunderstorms cutting the east coast in half? I don't disagree with you, just wonder what'cha gonna do when nobody answers to get junior assigned?

 

[shamrock]

Wow, so you guys can get junior-manned too? I had no idea. Guess we're more alike than I thought.

 

[fltdspx]

Funny you just edited that last post...my first thought to "how hard is that" is, how many folks answer their phone when caller ID says ASA and there's a line of thunderstorms cutting the east coast in half? I don't disagree with you, just wonder what'cha gonna do when nobody answers to get junior assigned?

that's vey true not much you can do when no one wants the OT.. however...when we sit next to the managers and can see them not calling ...that's when I get pissy....and to answer the other reply... yes we can be jr assigned but no one will answer the call on that one....lol...
from what I hear now is that if all the ppl who were selected for the sector managers position take it then dispatch will be just about back to where we were last year and will have to cover off time ( vacation and holidays ) with OT.. I am here to tell ya I will take all I can get...mmm I wander what our new contract will look like...

 

[ASA DX]

Yeah but that is always your second phone call..first round is to ask for takers for OT..if they get no takers more then likely they just split the desk up. I have seen Jr. assignment maybe 3 different times ever, and I have never been Jr. assigned the whole time I have been there. Its easy, you either had a beer or guess what you are out of town....no biggee really. That's where out department is wrong in their thinking of "fixing" the problem when we get short-handed the way we do. Its basically half ass read your notams and wx and crank out the releases. If I physically wanted to read every little thing I needed to before pushing "send" i could get myself behind on a 10 CLR day..and thats what we need to do. Get behind..go in the red..take delays and put them on "yourself" b/c you are not fully staffed. I wish ppl would realize that and stop fixing the problem for them when we dont have the man-power. Because guess what if you make it work, then there is no reason for them as a company to raise the pay and fix the problem. They sit back and just laugh every time we as the dispatch group fix the problem..because they are saving money and we are doing twice as much work.

Wow, so you guys can get junior-manned too? I had no idea. Guess we're more alike than I thought.