Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract

[BILL LUMBERG]

So to be clear. The Delta pilots expected the Comair pilots to give something up out of their already humble contract to offset the training costs of putting Delta furloughees in Comair seats plus whatever scheduling burdens may come to the Comair pilot group from 20 - 30 furloughees a month being called back to mainline, which manifests itself as junior manning and extentions.

What seems to go unsaid in the Delta pilot group is that all ALPA furloughees were welcomed at Comair. In fact, I've flown with United and US Airways furloughees who didn't seem to have a hard-on about being here. The only pilot group that suffers from the much ballyhooed righteous indignation are the Delta pilots who seem to have this "birthright" sense of entitlement.

Look, the Delta furloughees could have simply been displaced to Comair and ASA aircraft had the DMEC championed a merged seniority list in 2000. They didn't. We're separate. You got what you wanted.

And before you respond with the old saw about how a merger was impossible, it is the right of union employees to "bargain collectively" under federal law.

So stop the sanctimonious pouting about being treated like everybody else. It just doesn't wash anymore.

WE ARE CRYSTAL.....

In that line of thinking....So you mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands of dollars your pilots incurred against my airline because of your strike is really not your problem?? Sounds pretty stupid huh?? Just like your arguement about the "burden" of junior manning (GASP)....

Nothing had to be given up by taking a furloughed pilot....I guess you must be deeply worried about your attrition rate now at your humble airline, I'm sure you stay awake at night worried who's going to pay for it....

In your typical arrogance, you point out the COST to your group of taking on a new-hire furloughee......It never even crossed the minds of the ASA people....I guess once more 70 seaters came into play, you welcomed everybody with open arms.....Pathetic..'

You're welcome for the strike payout and I hope your strike advanced your deeply humble Pilot contract.

 

[N2264J]

ASA didn't seem to have a problem with it.

ASA management came from Delta management. Additionally, ASA does not have the company policy of dropping your current seniority number when hired.

Which is probably why ASA pilots must be getting hired by the dozen at Delta, while Comair pilots are probably an exception.

If ASA were still a wholly owned, the hiring ratio would be about the same. When a Comair pilot is hired, Delta pays for three training events; when an ASA pilot is hired, they pay for one training event.

Contrary to what the Delta pilots claim, an internal union dispute has no bearing on Delta's hiring practice. Management couldn't care less.

Come to think of it, you shills do management's bidding by continually exacerbating and perpetrating our union's internal conflicts with your pet wedge issues.

 

[N2264J]

So you mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands of dollars your pilots incurred against my airline because of your strike is really not your problem??

Originally posted in December 2006:

Greenslipping is a contractural right...

Yes, we've heard that before. The Delta pilots have every right to exersize their seniority and pick up open time as fast as it is published. Even though that has the affect of keeping furloughed pilots furloughed when the line guys fly all that extra time. So why the bitterness for Comair pilots who wanted a quid from the Delta MEC in the form of Brand Scope to buy a company policy change and allow Delta furloughees to keep their number?

I've been wondering about this for years. Then it hit me.

When the Comair pilots went on strike, it cost Delta, by their own admission, some $680 million dollars. That's $680 million dollars no longer available to say, fund a pension plan or help finance new aircraft for mainline pilots to fly. Many had Delta stock in their 401K and the strike had an adverse impact on its value. So I think it's reasonable to assume the Delta pilots have a deep seated resentment and animosity toward Comair pilots for striking their airline.

They say we are separate airlines but that's not the way it really is, is it?

Everyone knows the "regionals" are supposed to be a stepping stone and not a career. But the Delta pilots wouldn't be able to say what they really felt because the strike was considered throughout the industry, both inside and outside of ALPA, by mainline and "regional" alike, as a success.

As accolades were showered on Comair pilots, mainline pilots gritted their teeth - only three people crossed the line (one ex management, one already retired) and Comair pilots were praised for their unity while the mainliners bit their tongues. Comair pilots got to wear a star on their ALPA wings and while the Delta pilots couldn't, their ears were turning red, as a benchmark symbol of the "pecking order" was stood on its head.

The accrimony grew and they needed a canard so they could dis the Comair pilots under the guise of "union brothers as victims." Enter the furloughees.

So while Delta pilots were picking up open time as fast as they could, they slam Comair pilots about a company policy.

 

[jke406]

[SIZE=-1]Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...[/SIZE]

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just curious - since Delta owns Comair + DMEC's position is all flying is Delta flying + DMEC was in negotiations with Delta Management (who runs Comair) why didn't the Delta MEC simply negotiate a side letter with Comair's superior changing the policy?

The Delta pilots had a SLOA for bid restricted Second Officers to come fly at ASA (while keeping both seniority numbers) until they met Delta's requirements and could go back to Delta in the right seat. I don't know if anyone did it, but the agreement was there. Although the ASA group welcomed the Delta pilots during the furlough, it was a continuation of a long standing policy - not a change.

The Delta furloghees who came to ASA were really good folks; excellent pilots with good attitudes.

 

[737 Pylt]

[SIZE=-1]Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...[/SIZE]

No jerk, you're the only one dumber!
Get back to sharpening pencils please, besides its now time to clean the toilets. Move it private!

737

 

[jke406]

Get back to sharpening pencils please, besides its now time to clean the toilets. Move it private!

737

I haven't been in the military in several years.

But thank you for diminishing the sacrifices and contributions of our current military members (especially the junior enlisted ranks).

Perhaps you should move to Berkeley or join Code Pink, you ungrateful degenerate.

 

[N2264J]

I'll be singing that same tune at your liquidation party!
737

Really?

Weren't you suspended the last time for this kind of potty mouth?

 

[737 Pylt]

Really?

Weren't you suspended the last time for this kind of potty mouth?

Nope, it was for accusing a certain group of pilots of being scabs! There's no potty mouth here junior!
How'd that suit work out for ya sparky? You get all that back money paid to Haber? I hear his house on the hamptons is getting ready to be painted.

737

 

[N2264J]

There's no potty mouth here junior!

That would be "Captain" junior to you, First Officer Pyle. Don't you have a walk around to do or something?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I'll bet $10 there is a merger before a pilot deal is hammered out.

 

[737 Pylt]

That would be "Captain" junior to you, First Officer Pyle. Don't you have a walk around to do or something?

I'll tell you what "captain," after the liquidation, we'll give you the same consideration you gave the Delta pilots!:laugh:
Polish up that resume sport!

737

 

[PuffDriver]

ASA management came from Delta management. Additionally, ASA does not have the company policy of dropping your current seniority number when hired.



If ASA were still a wholly owned, the hiring ratio would be about the same. When a Comair pilot is hired, Delta pays for three training events; when an ASA pilot is hired, they pay for one training event.

Contrary to what the Delta pilots claim, an internal union dispute has no bearing on Delta's hiring practice. Management couldn't care less.

Come to think of it, you shills do management's bidding by continually exacerbating and perpetrating our union's internal conflicts with your pet wedge issues.

Of course you are right. I mean, who better to know about the hiring practices of our management than you, right?

Ok, now back to reality. You are incorrect on all counts, as usual. You and Joe Merchant are hilarious the way you have this industry all figured out yet are never right about any of you hypothesis.

If what you say is true, than we would also have a large amount of pilots being hired from other regionals. We are not. I have flown with 3 Pinncle, 1 Mesaba guy, 3 Chautauqua, 15 Skywest, and about 25 ASA, 1 Comair--who was an intern here and had been at Comair about 2 years, and 7 or 8 military.

That's not exactly an even playing field. You are trying to explain the numbers with nothing to back you up. These show the complete lack of understanding you have with pretty much anything that has to do with Delta.

But keep trying, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

I will dig around a bit, and see if I can find JCs letter where hethought that Comair pilots and Delta pilots in the same cockpit would be unsafe. it's out there. He had the power to influence, and indeed it later happened that Delta pilots could be hired without resigning their seniority.

Somehow I have a feeling that you will keep digging your own hole, so I will post this for now.

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

Divide and we will fall....

I was not even at Comair when Delta pilots were first furloughed and am sorry that it happened. Comair had furloughes while I was here and I am sorry they were also furloughed. We must put these disagreements behind us in times like this. It is the only way we will not be taken advantage of by our management group.

Good luck to all pilot groups involved during these times. We are all going to need it.

 

[N2264J]

I have flown with 3 Pinncle, 1 Mesaba guy, 3 Chautauqua, 15 Skywest, and about 25 ASA, 1 Comair--who was an intern here and had been at Comair about 2 years, and 7 or 8 military.

So you have a column in your logbook dedicated to who your FO's last employer was? The reason I'm asking is that I couldn't remember 25 of anything unless I wrote it down.

He [JC] had the power to influence...

Are you high? We have a hard enough time getting management to abide by our current agreement let alone something outside the contract. At least I know the Comair pilots will understand what I'm saying. We would have had to buy a change in company policy.

 

[737 Pylt]

So you have a column in your logbook dedicated to who your FO's last employer was? The reason I'm asking is that I couldn't remember 25 of anything unless I wrote it down.

Unless it had to do with dan or jessee right??

Are you high? We have a hard enough time getting management to abide by our current agreement let alone something outside the contract. At least I know the Comair pilots will understand what I'm saying. We would have had to buy a change in company policy.

Just file another lawsuit sparky.......The last one did so well for y'all!!!:laugh: :laugh:
Better polish up that resume......CAPTAIN!:beer:

737

 

[PuffDriver]

So you have a column in your logbook dedicated to who your FO's last employer was? The reason I'm asking is that I couldn't remember 25 of anything unless I wrote it down.


Yup, shore nuff, you kept digging. Distract from the real story by deflecting and diverting. The point is not my memory. The point is something different entirely. Somehow I think that you get the point. Regardless, the people who aren't in denial do get it.



Are you high? We have a hard enough time getting management to abide by our current agreement let alone something outside the contract. At least I know the Comair pilots will understand what I'm saying. We would have had to buy a change in company policy.

Ahhh. yet the Delta pilots could have just gotten the Comair pilots on the seniority list with the stroke of a pen as many on here seem to suggest. I am not high at all. nor do I make stuff up in order to support my own cause. You are the high one, buddy, and you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. Bit you already know that. You just don't have the ability to admit it.

 

[N2264J]

Ahhh. yet the Delta pilots could have just gotten the Comair pilots on the seniority list with the stroke of a pen as many on here seem to suggest.

I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Why don't you cut and paste the post you're thinking of. If many on here are suggesting that, it should be easy enough to find one post.

Yup, shore nuff...

So you're telling us that you, a Delta captain, have a dedicated column in your logbook for who the FO's previous employer was? Pardon me for dwelling on this but I find this so remarkable in a funny kind of way.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So you're telling us that you, a Delta captain, have a dedicated column in your logbook for who the FO's previous employer was? Pardon me for dwelling on this but I find this so remarkable in a funny kind of way.

That is not so unusual. Consider it has been a while since Delta had new hries on the property and the background of Delta new hires has always been a point that has been emphasized and watched by the pilot group. Delta even publishes the backgrounds of the pilots in new hire classes and maintains stats that you see copied on the web boards.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, now back to reality. You are incorrect on all counts, as usual. You and Joe Merchant are hilarious the way you have this industry all figured out yet are never right about any of you hypothesis.

Actually, most of my"hypothesis" have been pretty accurate.....I have believed that ALPA's failure to address scope in a fair and effective manner will result in loss of mainline jobs, and lowering of pay and workrules as we all compete with each other.....I also have believed, since the PID days, that the longer ALPA puts off a solution, the harder and costlier any solution will be.....I now don't believe a solution is even possible.....

In addition, ASA didn't have a policy of requiring pilots to resign their seniority number, so there wasn't any need for it to be negotiated......Apples and oranges......

 

[PuffDriver]

I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Why don't you cut and paste the post you're thinking of. If many on here are suggesting that, it should be easy enough to find one post.



So you're telling us that you, a Delta captain, have a dedicated column in your logbook for who the FO's previous employer was? Pardon me for dwelling on this but I find this so remarkable in a funny kind of way.

OK, from post #88 on ..should regional pilots be worried:

Now, back to the topic, your MEC can staple us to your list with the stroke of a pen, and it costs you nothing. Yet they choose to continue building higher walls between us (exclusive scope).


From John Pennekemp. So there is one. I need not go back and look for yours and Merchants, for they are there as well.

As for my knowledge of who I have flown with, I keep this little book of flight times, and people I have flown with. Since we started hiring, i also keep track of where our new hires are coming from. It ain't rocket science, except for you. I notice that you fail to address ANY of the valid points.

Hook, line, sinker. Now you know why you aren't at a major.
You just have to laugh at some people.

 

[John Pennekamp]

OK, from post #88 on ..should regional pilots be worried:

Now, back to the topic, your MEC can staple us to your list with the stroke of a pen, and it costs you nothing. Yet they choose to continue building higher walls between us (exclusive scope).


From John Pennekemp. So there is one. I need not go back and look for yours and Merchants, for they are there as well.

As for my knowledge of who I have flown with, I keep this little book of flight times, and people I have flown with. Since we started hiring, i also keep track of where our new hires are coming from. It ain't rocket science, except for you. I notice that you fail to address ANY of the valid points.

Hook, line, sinker. Now you know why you aren't at a major.
You just have to laugh at some people.

I'm honored. But quoting me out of context from a different thread doesn't prove crap. You really suck at debating.

 

[PuffDriver]

I'm honored. But quoting me out of context from a different thread doesn't prove crap. You really suck at debating.

Yeah whoda thought that somebody saying that the Delta pilots can just magically swipe the pen and put the Comair pilots doesn't prove that there is one post of somebody's who thinks that the Delta pilots can just magically swipe the pen and put the Comair pilots on their list.

you're going to make a GReeeeaaatttt lawyer. NOT.

Hook, line, and sinker.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Puff......since you dragged me into your pi$$ing contest......I do think it would cost $ to get a single list....and since it would be part of the mainline CBA, it would require some negotiating capital.......

When factoring in "cost" however, you need to factor in the "cost" of NOT doing it....That TOO will COST you money one way or the other.....It has already cost mainline jobs, and it has put downward pressure on mainline pay and workrules......So it costs one way or another.....

That being said, I don't believe a single list will happen......The window of opportunity was missed back in 2000/2001....

Now I am focused on a single list with Skywest.....and growing my company.......

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff......since you dragged me into your pi$$ing contest......I do think it would cost $ to get a single list....and since it would be part of the mainline CBA, it would require some negotiating capital.......

When factoring in "cost" however, you need to factor in the "cost" of NOT doing it....That TOO will COST you money one way or the other.....It has already cost mainline jobs, and it has put downward pressure on mainline pay and workrules......So it costs one way or another.....

That being said, I don't believe a single list will happen......The window of opportunity was missed back in 2000/2001....

Now I am focused on a single list with Skywest.....and growing my company.......

Finally, light is dawning on thick skull. I would say that BK is what put the downward pressure on pay and work rules, although the work rules survived.

There are many of us who are also informed that consider a single list to be undoable. That's right, undoable. Delta will never go for it, no matter the savings. The best possible option, flow-through, was shunned by the big fish in the little pond as a non-starter, yet would have accomplished essentially the same thing. You've even said it yourself, ASA and Comair pilots would have been the furlough fodder instead of the junior Delta pilots with one list. The same thing would have happened with a flow-through. In good times, ASA and Comair pilots would have flowed to mainline. In bad times, those same pilots would have flowed back to their old positions at ASA and Comair as well as some Delta junior, and junior ASA and Comair get furloughed or possibly just absorbed temporarily.

You wanted all or nothing, Sydney or the bush, and you got nothing. You had perceived leverage, which turned out to be just a temporary gleam on the 50 seat jet horizon, and your window of opportunity has closed. Meanwhile, the Delta MEC retains the authority to negotiate at its leisure expansions or retractions in scope--with the token memo dedicated to those who fought so bravely to circumvent the Delta contract. While this is going on, ASA pilots abound leave all around you and flock in droves to other airlines--including Delta. You have to ask, why? I have. And they have told me.

The reprocussions are yours.

 

[atrdriver]

So to be clear. The Delta pilots expected the Comair pilots to give something up out of their already humble contract to offset the training costs of putting Delta furloughees in Comair seats plus whatever scheduling burdens may come to the Comair pilot group from 20 - 30 furloughees a month being called back to mainline, which manifests itself as junior manning and extentions.

Gee, ASA didn't have to give anything up from our already "humble" contract to allow the hiring of DAL furloughs. Get this straight. It was the right thing to do, and ASA did it, while CMR didn't. Pilots may not be the smartest group in the world, but they do have long memories. If you crap on them they won't forget it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Gee, ASA didn't have to give anything up from our already "humble" contract to allow the hiring of DAL furloughs. Get this straight. It was the right thing to do, and ASA did it, while CMR didn't. Pilots may not be the smartest group in the world, but they do have long memories. If you crap on them they won't forget it.

ASA didn't require pilots to resign from their previous carriers....CMR did require it......Apples and Oranges.....The Delta pilots would never negotiate something for another pilot group without some "quids".....so why should anyone else do the same for them......

 

[atrdriver]

ASA didn't require pilots to resign from their previous carriers....CMR did require it......Apples and Oranges.....The Delta pilots would never negotiate something for another pilot group without some "quids".....so why should anyone else do the same for them......

And you know very well that had the CMR MEC introduced a resolution supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs without resigning their seniority numbers that is all it would have taken. Management may not have done it, but the sentiment would have been there, and it would not have cost a cent, except for the paper it was written on. But they didn't, and now the damage is done. Long memories Joe.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And you know very well that had the CMR MEC introduced a resolution supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs without resigning their seniority numbers that is all it would have taken. Management may not have done it, but the sentiment would have been there, and it would not have cost a cent, except for the paper it was written on. But they didn't, and now the damage is done. Long memories Joe.

And when has the DMEC ever done anything for another group out of the goodness of their hearts.....They filed 2 separate scope grievances against ASA and CMR......They filed a grievance against the ASA pass privledges with Delta....In any of those cases did they come to their ASA and CMR "brothers" to try and work out a mutual agreement?

Your right about "long memories".....some of us have "long memories" about the DMEC.....

 

[PuffDriver]

And when has the DMEC ever done anything for another group out of the goodness of their hearts.....They filed 2 separate scope grievances against ASA and CMR......They filed a grievance against the ASA pass privledges with Delta....In any of those cases did they come to their ASA and CMR "brothers" to try and work out a mutual agreement?

Your right about "long memories".....some of us have "long memories" about the DMEC.....

You are such a joke. Let's address the "apples and oranges" thing. You can try to hide behind the Comair MEC chair's, excuse me former chair, coattails--which aren't very long--but all that was asked was support for Delta furloughees at Comair. he flatly refused, and went a step further in saying that indeed it may create "safety" concerns. Indeed, the policy was later changed, when all of a sudden, Comair's "leverage" evaporated. There is a monstrous difference between citing company policy and actively supporting such a policy.

OK, these grievances--remember according to you that you are correct on almost all accounts--all of which I later prove to be untrue.

The Shuttle grievance and the pass grievance. First, oh prognosticator, tell me what the end result of said grievances was since you seem to know sooooo much. i'll be waiting for that answer.

Second, both grievance were brought up solely as violations of the Delta PWA. There was no consulting needed as nobody was affected by the Delta PWA except Delta pilots. In the passes, Delta pilots are not allowed to have a reduction of their online pass privileges as a whole during the tenure of the contract. With the addition of ASA and Comair pilots to the mix of DOH passes, that aspect of contract violation came into question. The remedy sought was not revocation of passes for ASA and Comair. It was monetary damage restoration, although in fairness, the company may have elected to revoke the passes should the grievance had gone through AND the Delta pilots had come out on top. Now, and this is a hint, I haven't seen any money from the deal, and Comair still has those privileges, so please tell me hat happened to that grievance? <whisper>hint-it was dropped.

Now for the shuttle grievance. Pretty simple really, and many grievances go this way: it was a clear violation and the company agreed to cease and desist.

Now, tell me again where you are correct in this arena. The fact is that you pretty much don't know jack, and it is confirmed by your fellow pilots opinions of you as they make their way towards the pinnacles of their careers as well as your mockery of trying to make mountains our of mole hills with grievances that do not concern you nor contain matter that you thought they did.

Hook, line, and sinker