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trainer8

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Posts
596
Formerly on the ALPA web board, but deleted by ALPA:


Did you know that Date of Hire seniority integration is now mandated by the law President Bush signed in December of 2007 when two airlines with different unions merge??? Don’t you think that is critical information considering that Parker has stated another merger is likely and he recently secured a golden parachute clause for key management? Here are details; pass this along to everyone who might be interested:
------------------------------

Fellow pilots,

We are often asked the question, "What happens if we have a merger with United or Northwest or someone else?"

On December 26th President Bush signed H.R. 2764 into Law. This Bill guarantees all airline employees involved in a merger seniority integration under Allegheny Mohawk labor protections, IF both groups of covered employees ARE NOT represented by the same union.

This means in order to reap the benefit of HR 2764, as shown below, we must remove ourselves from ALPA. Clearly, ALPA does not want you to know this; a law has been signed that affects every pilot in the United States, yet not a word from ALPA. We can only surmise that ALPA understands that the pilots will realize that while they're in ALPA they have a merger policy that disregards and even penalizes longevity, yet once outside ALPA, they will be protected by "fair and equitable" language which historically uses date of hire as a starting point.

Please take a moment to read the relevant portion of this law, and draw your own conclusions.



<FONT face=Arial><FONT size=3><FONT color=#003399>President Bush Signs H.R. 2764 into Law
"Today, I signed into law H.R. 2764, legislation that will fund the Federal Government within the reasonable and responsible spending levels I proposed -- without raising taxes and without the most objectionable policy changes considered by the Congress. This law provides a down payment for the resources our troops need, without arbitrary timelines for withdrawal. The Congress should quickly take action next year to provide the remainder of the funding needed by our troops.
I am disappointed in the way the Congress compiled this legislation, including abandoning the goal I set early this year to reduce the number and cost of earmarks by half. Instead, the Congress dropped into the bill nearly 9,800 earmarks that total more than $10 billion. These projects are not funded through a merit-based process and provide a vehicle for wasteful Government spending.
There is still more to be done to rein in Government spending. In February I will submit my budget proposal for fiscal year 2009, which will once again restrain spending, keep taxes low, and continue us on a path towards a balanced budget. I look forward to working with the Congress in the coming year to ensure taxpayer dollars are spent wisely.
Finally, this legislation contains certain provisions similar to those found in prior appropriations bills passed by the Congress that might be construed to be inconsistent with my Constitutional responsibilities. To avoid such potential infirmities, the executive branch will interpret and construe such provisions in the same manner as I have previously stated in regard to similar provisions. "
GEORGE W. BUSH
THE WHITE HOUSE,

December 26, 2007.
# # #
H. R. 2764— page 539 (Note: this bill is 631 pages long; we have included the relevant portion here. Comments added.)
(c) AIRPORT AND AIRWAY TRUST FUND EXPENDITURE
AUTHORITY.—
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION.—With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that— (1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; (i.e., if a pilot belongs to ALPA merger policy will be one that disregards longevity entirely) and (2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny- Mohawk provisions (i.e., "fair and equitable" language which historically uses date of hire as a starting point.)
(b) DEFINITIONS.—In this section, the following definitions apply:
(1) AIR CARRIER.—The term ‘‘air carrier’’ means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER.—The term ‘‘covered air carrier’’ means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE.—The term ‘‘covered employee’’ means an employee who—(A) is not a temporary employee; and (B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
(4) COVERED TRANSACTION.—The term ‘‘covered transaction’’ (A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which means— (B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of— (i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or (ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.
H. R. 2764—540
(c) APPLICATION.—This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION.—This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
 
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Ummm... fair and equitable DOES NOT always equal date of hire.

Airline A has a narrowbody first officer on reserve hired 15 years ago. This first officer cannot hold narrowbody first officer bid line, let alone captain. Airline A is obviously very stagnant.

Airline B has a narrowbody captain hired 10 years ago. This captain has a solid captain bid line. Airline B has been a growing airline.

Airline B decides to purchase or merge with Airline A to become Airline C.

How do you merge these two? Date of hire? Seat? Date of birth? Relative seniority?
 
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Fairness??? You are talking to a guy ( tranny 8 ) that flew up from Alg but now think the flow thru should be cancelled. I won't even go into what Binding means...
 
Ummm... fair and equitable DOES NOT always equal date of hire.

Airline A has a narrowbody first officer on reserve hired 15 years ago. This first officer cannot hold narrowbody first officer bid line, let alone captain. Airline A is obviously very stagnant.

Airline B has a narrowbody captain hired 10 years ago. This captain has a solid captain bid line. Airline B has been a growing airline.

Airline B decides to purchase or merge with Airline A to become Airline C.

How do you merge these two? Date of hire? Seat? Date of birth? Relative seniority?

Relative seniority. If you were 60% seniority before a merger and 60% seniority after a merger, how can you say that you've gained or lost anything? QOL, bases, upgrades, aircraft are all about seniority. Anyone who pleads for DOH is simply looking for a windfall to make up for what his/her present airline has been unable to provide in the past. That's just the life of a pilot, sorry, you make a decision to accept an offer somewhere and when you retire you'll know if it was the best available airline for you. You can't get half way through your career, realize that you are in a dead end and may actually retire without the chance to upgrade in your base, and then see an opportunity to make up for lost time by merging with a growing, hiring, "more junior" airline than you. Sorry, I don't buy it.
 
All the bold and bright colors make my eyes hurt. I feel like I'm reading one of those chemtrails websites or one of jetflier's peak oil posts.

Moving on.
 
Ummm... fair and equitable DOES NOT always equal date of hire.

Airline A has a narrowbody first officer on reserve hired 15 years ago. This first officer cannot hold narrowbody first officer bid line, let alone captain. Airline A is obviously very stagnant.

Airline B has a narrowbody captain hired 10 years ago. This captain has a solid captain bid line. Airline B has been a growing airline.

Airline B decides to purchase or merge with Airline A to become Airline C.

How do you merge these two? Date of hire? Seat? Date of birth? Relative seniority?

the majority of Us Airways east pilots, including Trainer8, have lost touch with reality. there is no point in trying to engage in a reasonable argument. They have become unhinged. Nowhere in there does it say DOH but when you throw in 'fair and equitable' language they assume the only fair and equitable provision would be DOH. The USAPA clowns feel it is only right that a furloughee should be recalled senior to lineholding captains. There will never be an agreement on fair integration which is what led to binding arbitration. Unfortunately an agreement is no good if it is made with a group completely lacking integrity.

on a side note i like the yellow USAPA lanyards. What a fitting color.
 
The provision would have major consequences for a SWA merger or acquisition. SWA, fair and equitable in an integration, so much for stapling.

The suffering by Lance captains and FO's who's chance of upgrade have been extended a minumum of five years will indefinitely continue.

So much for SWAPA's lies of not harming the group.
 
Trainer8 (and a few others): you misunderstand the new law. It mandates a process (Allegheny/Mohawk) ending in arbitration. In other words, it seeks to make ALPA Merger Policy the policy for all unions. This prevents unions like the APA from imposing thier will on future merging carriers.

SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.

(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that--

(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and

(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

(1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.

(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.

(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--

(A) is not a temporary employee; and

(B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).

(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--

(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which

(B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--

(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or

(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.

(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
 
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Allegheny Mohawk has ZILCH to do with DOH. This is more false hope from USAPA, (not the pickleball association, the cry babies on the East coast who don't know they should be blaming themselves for the nic award).

Binding Arbitration is Binding. Ask any of us Alaska guys who have now lost 120k since May of 05. Decertifying Alpa wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.
 
If the law were truly DOH why does it provide for arbitration? If it were truly DOH there would be no need for that, DOH could be done in a matter of seconds by computer.

Spin, baby, spin.
 
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Relative seniority. If you were 60% seniority before a merger and 60% seniority after a merger, how can you say that you've gained or lost anything? QOL, bases, upgrades, aircraft are all about seniority. Anyone who pleads for DOH is simply looking for a windfall to make up for what his/her present airline has been unable to provide in the past. That's just the life of a pilot, sorry, you make a decision to accept an offer somewhere and when you retire you'll know if it was the best available airline for you. You can't get half way through your career, realize that you are in a dead end and may actually retire without the chance to upgrade in your base, and then see an opportunity to make up for lost time by merging with a growing, hiring, "more junior" airline than you. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Well said-
I've asked this before- do you think any airline, given the stagnation at USAir will agree to a DOH merger w/ you? That would be a windfall for you in EVERY possible case.
Before you say it's law- look at how you've ignored the law during your current process. No airline will allow it- DOH was changed as policy for good reasons and if the USAir weren't bought out by America West (who has long been treated like a step-child by ALPA) but rather by United or Delta you wouldn't have gotten as far as you have with your coup.
Sorry=- but we dont live in a socialist society. There are consequences to being at poorer run, stagnant company. You've been there for a LONG time- you've had your chances to get out to places where movement is better.

The east's issue is with our seniority system overall. In that- i agree with you. But don't be an old timer and try to change the rules mid-game....
 
Merge is by D.O.H., as the law specifies.


If they have the same union, then the union's rules apply. If they do not, then Allegheny/Mohawk. Any ALPA carrier will follow the ALPA merger policy, which has specific criteria. If they cannot agree, then they can go to binding arbitration, and if they don't like that result, they can cry like babies like USAir East pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Isn't that the truth General. The USAir guys spend the majority of their career getting hosed by management, and they'll spend what's left of hit hosing themselves.

And I would agree with most of your comments re: merger. I think there would have to be more "shrinking" to really increase the margin's. And airlines just don't like to shrink.

I think we'll start to see the government get a "touch" more involved if there isn't a correction in the industry (liquidation, etc.). There is simply way too much capacity, too many flights, and no new runways, airports or airspace. The government, IMO, is simply not going to tolerate the massive delays that continue to mount.

--ultra
 
it's funny how east pilots don't stay on public forums very long. they'd rather stay on their in-house web site where they can convince themselves that the industry is on their side.

With merger mania breathing down everyone's neck- noone thinks that usair couldn't be trying this crap with their airline too...

USAPA only delays your contract. You say your seniority is not for sale- i say you don't understand seniority- and your "Bottom-Feeder" wages aren't funny to any of us in this industry. You had a chance to get them up-= and you didn't= Maybe that doesn't make you a scab- but certainly no better than skybus, va or go-jets.... good job guys... but we're all with you...(sarcasm)
 
it's funny how east pilots don't stay on public forums very long. they'd rather stay on their in-house web site where they can convince themselves that the industry is on their side.

With merger mania breathing down everyone's neck- noone thinks that usair couldn't be trying this crap with their airline too...

USAPA only delays your contract. You say your seniority is not for sale- i say you don't understand seniority- and your "Bottom-Feeder" wages aren't funny to any of us in this industry. You had a chance to get them up-= and you didn't= Maybe that doesn't make you a scab- but certainly no better than skybus, va or go-jets.... good job guys... but we're all with you...(sarcasm)


Not true! Log onto usaviation.com there are more usapa clowns there than you can shake a stick at. Look at the usairways thread.

WD.
 
The suffering by Lance captains and FO's who's chance of upgrade have been extended a minumum of five years will indefinitely continue.

So much for SWAPA's lies of not harming the group.

Not really...for example, when SWA aquired Morris...we got the airplanes, and the pilots...and just kept right on hiring...

Why?

Because of our productive work rules. No other airline has the work rules we have...and Morris didn't either. We had to continue hiring to make up for the increased productivity that the additional airplanes brought to the table.

the exact same thing would happen in another merger....unless SWA aquired an airline with the same productive work rules....
 
Lets trade for just one night:beer:

WD.

" Hello ...Mrs Whiskey Driver ??? You don't know me. I work with your husband. Do you know what he posted on FI.com ??? "

OK ,bro. How much you payin' me to keep quiet and not make that call ?? ;)

PHXFLYR:cool:
 
" Hello ...Mrs Whiskey Driver ??? You don't know me. I work with your husband. Do you know what he posted on FI.com ??? "

OK ,bro. How much you payin' me to keep quiet and not make that call ?? ;)

PHXFLYR:cool:

I know where you live, I know your wife's name, I just got off the phone with your brother and you are acting like your uncle again!!:laugh:
 
Not really...for example, when SWA aquired Morris...we got the airplanes, and the pilots...and just kept right on hiring...

Why?

Because of our productive work rules. No other airline has the work rules we have...and Morris didn't either. We had to continue hiring to make up for the increased productivity that the additional airplanes brought to the table.

the exact same thing would happen in another merger....unless SWA aquired an airline with the same productive work rules....

SWA is not growing at it mid-1990's rate when SWA acquired Morris. SWA is going to take FIVE airplanes in all of 2008. Maybe less! SWA a growth airline, what a joke! SWA is only going to promote 25 captains in all of 2008 compared to the pre-age 65 rule of up to 300 with age 60 retirements and the original aborted aircraft growth plan.

Plus SWA now has to be fair and equitable in an integration as a result of the new legislation.

How are those factors not going to further affect the Lances and FO's? The results will be devastating.

Your head is really in the sand Tejas-Jet if you don't know that every other airline in the country today has the same productivity potential as SWA. I don't know of any other contract that currently has the rigs the SWA contract has. Those alone have made the SWA contract productivity inferior to every legacy in business today concerning pilot productivity. Not to mention SWA industry leading B737 wage lowering SWA comparative productivity.
 
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This law change will make the bottom of the SWA seniority list a GRAVEYARD after any type of merger/acquisition. SWA might even start churning the bottom like Eagle does.

Hope you upgrade before you retire Tejas-Jet! If you don't make it you will only have yourself to blame.

And if you are a captain you sure better not be bragging like you do here because those bitter FOs you stabbed in the back might just bite! They might not of seen your lies coming when you where fooling them but they sure know now after having been hit in the head.

This law change directly affects SWA seniority in any future deals.
 
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I wrote an article about the history of seniority mergers for our in-house newsletter a few months ago, and spent countless hours doing research on it. Now this new addition to Federal Law comes up, and I just spent another evening looking at innumerable webpages and legal documents about the Mohawk-Allegheny rules (including the USAPA pages), and I have just one question: Could someone at USAPA please, Please, PLEASE, tell me, EXACTLY where you find that M-A means Date of Hire, and only Date of Hire? Please? I must be missing something because for the last several hours, the ONLY place I find that notation is on your (or your supporters) pages. Somehow Uncle Sam and the entire American Legal community has missed it somewhere. If you could lead us in the right direction I'd sure appreciate it.

HAL
 
Fairness??? You are talking to a guy ( tranny 8 ) that flew up from Alg but now think the flow thru should be cancelled. I won't even go into what Binding means...

You are correct that I'm recalled through my former position Mid-Atlantic Airways, a (now) recognized part of LCC. (There is an financial earthquake coming in Herndon on that subject alone). Prior to that , ALG.

You are incorrect that I think the PWO Flow thru should be cancelled. I have always supported the PWO Flow-thru process. I have only taken exception to the treatment of APL at specific PWO carriers and flow-back proposal language at PDT in 2006 and its departure from the original concensus in 2004. That is well documented on this site over on the Regional board.
 
HAL: don't worry about what USAPA thinks. Their "interpretations" of many things are too far off to fix.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/28/ai...ped-cx_esp_0129airlines.html?partner=yahootix

Commentary
Congress Fuels Airline Merger Madness
Evan Sparks 01.29.08, 600 AM ET

WASHINGTON, D.C. -
Merger mania has struck the airlines once again. A year after US Airways failed to buy Delta Air Lines in a hostile takeover (then, pundits heralded the long-awaited industry consolidation), the buzz is back.
Not long ago, a hedge fund with stakes in both Delta and United Airlines spun a rumor about a merger, causing the stock price to soar. Now, Delta's board has decided to examine mergers with other airlines, principally United and Northwest Airlines (nyse: NWA - news - people ). Northwest's CEO announced that merger proposals would be weighed carefully, and United has made no secret of its desire in recent months to merge with another airline. And now may be just the right time to merge, thanks to a provision in the 2007 appropriations act requiring "fair and equitable" handling of labor issues during a merger.
While merger rumors tend to send an airline's stock price soaring--Delta's went from $12 to $16 on news that its management was considering a merger--actually making a merger happen is more like threading a needle. From antitrust regulation and scheduling to logistics and systems integration, a merger meets countless challenges.
But the biggest challenge is merging two workforces. Airline employees are organized on the basis of seniority. Senior pilots, for example, are first in line for promotion from first officer to captain, fly the largest aircraft, choose the plum routes and are paid the most. These are all assigned on the basis of a sacrosanct "master seniority list," with the longest-serving employees at the top and new hires at the bottom.
This is the stickiest wicket in an airline merger. The employees of the purchasing carrier see the merger date as the "date of hire" at their airline and argue that the other airlines' employees should be tacked on to the bottom of the seniority list, as even a little interference with the list can make a difference in hundreds of thousands in career earnings. The employees of the bought-out carrier want to be integrated into the seniority list.
How weighty is this issue? Look at US Airways: More than two years since America West (nyse: LCC - news - people ) took it over, its two pilot groups are still haggling over the seniority lists. The former America West pilots like the plan put forward by the airline, but the US Airways crew are unwilling to ratify the new contract, which would make less experienced American West pilots more senior than their eastern counterparts.
This is hardly the first time this has happened. In 1988, when FedEx (nyse: FDX - news - people ) bought the Flying Tiger Line (to get access to the Tigers' Asian routes), they merged the seniority lists, spawning over a decade of litigation. In 2001, American Airlines (nyse: AMR - news - people ) bought struggling TWA. More than 50% of TWA's pilots and all its cabin crew were tacked on to the bottom of the American Airlines seniority list, causing widespread resentment. During the post-Sept. 11 aviation downturn, the former TWA flight attendants were the first to be furloughed.
TWA's main base in 2001 was in St. Louis, where American retains a "focus city" operation. Missouri's senators, Democrat Claire McCaskill and Republican Kit Bond, unhappy with the way TWA workers fared in the buyout, offered a little-noticed amendment to the omnibus spending bill that brings back a regulation-era worker-protection policy. The law subjects mergers and buyouts to Sections 3 and 13 of the Civil Aeronautics Board's decision in the 1972 Allegheny-Mohawk merger. Prior to deregulation in 1978, the Civil Aeronautics Board (the primary airline regulator) required merged airlines to include some onerous "labor protection provisions" in the terms of the merger, many of which were negotiated into collective bargaining agreements after deregulation.
The McCaskill-Bond amendment requires just two of the labor protections: that "provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner" and that disputes over seniority be submitted to binding arbitration.
"Fair and equitable" is thought to mean that seniority lists would be merged, as McCaskill and Bond thought should have happened with TWA's workers. Binding arbitration speeds up the process, forestalling the endless negotiations over new contracts currently bedeviling US Airways. Furthermore, past airline mergers--including FedEx's acquisition of the Flying Tigers--would probably not have happened without a merged seniority list for pilots. The Tigers merger fueled FedEx's international expansion, demonstrating the remarkable added value that a merger can offer.
With congressional guidance on integrating employee seniority lists, airlines face one less roadblock to their desired mergers. Of course, "fair and equitable" cuts both ways, and many employees who face being bumped down in seniority will be unhappy with this turn of events. Employee-management relations at most major airlines are already sour, and long-term employee resistance to mergers may erode the merger's benefits. US Airways is a case in point: After its stock rose to $40 post-merger, and eventually $60 by the end of 2006, the airline had a bad 2007 and has seen its stock price fall to less than $12. Air-traffic delays and $100-per-barrel oil have affected all airlines, but low morale and vanishing esprit among crew do nothing to improve performance.
Thanks to the McCaskill-Bond amendment, mergers that produce value and create synergies have one less hurdle to leap.
 
The irony in this bill is that the ex-TWA pilots would be severely disadvantaged by it in any future AA merger due to our being so "junior". Regardless, it's still a good thing though in reality there may be loopholes. Can't wait to find out. Not!
 

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