UAL Scope VS CAL Scope

[catIIIc]

United guys,

I know I am putting the cart before the horse, but seeing as we may be partners in the not so distance future I have a question.

In your Scope clause do you have a cap on the 70 seaters that fly for United Express? I am asking because if we end up merging that is the first thing that needs to happen. Our Scope is fairly strong with every jet above 50 seats flown by Continental Pilots. I know our management is chopping at the bit to get bigger jets on property and we aren't letting them.

I hope the government stops these mega mergers because it will be ugly, but I just wanted to ask the question.

 

[MCDU]

It will be DOH, that is all I know.

Marty

 

[whymeworry?]

It will be DOH, that is all I know.

Marty

Well you don't know much then, do you?

 

[Uniform Shop]

It will be DOH, that is all I know.

Marty

WOW! Maybe I read the question wrong because that has absolutely nothing to do with what he asked.

We all know that an arbitrator's decision is almost never straight DOH and I really doubt this is going to happen anyway so I wouldn't worry too much about where you might end up on the seniority list. :beer:

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I believe our fearless MEC leader back in 2003 read you Paul Whiteford (IDIOT) let the company have as many 70 seaters as they want...of course that was to save the pilot pension...good job Paul...hope that answers your question

I agree anything over 50...goes to mainline

 

[donvag]

CAL scope clause is that any JET over 50 seats has to be flown by mainline pilots.

Q400 have 70 seats but since it is a prop it can be flown by Colgan.

 

[catIIIc]

I know that is what I put.

 

[twad]

They Can have DOH

Just as long as we get DATE OF BIRTH!!!!! What a stupid thing to say. Nice.

 

[ualdriver]

United guys,

I know I am putting the cart before the horse, but seeing as we may be partners in the not so distance future I have a question.

In your Scope clause do you have a cap on the 70 seaters that fly for United Express? I am asking because if we end up merging that is the first thing that needs to happen. Our Scope is fairly strong with every jet above 50 seats flown by Continental Pilots. I know our management is chopping at the bit to get bigger jets on property and we aren't letting them.

I hope the government stops these mega mergers because it will be ugly, but I just wanted to ask the question.

Our scope sucks. Off the top of my head, they can fly anything up to 70 seats. There was a weight limit, too, but a bull**** side letter was signed that allowed the E170 to be outsourced as well even though it was too heavy under the original language. I think they can have as many RJ's as we have mainline aircraft, 1 for 1. Our management is currently flying a lot less RJ's than they could under our current scope. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[AWACoff]

Heck, Air Wisconsin was flying 95,000 lb 100 seaters as United Express. It doesn't get much weaker than that when it comes to scope. As far as DOH in a UAL/CAL merger... Why should growth from CAL become growth for UAL? We are the ones making money, not UAL. MCDU, you are truly out of touch if you were even half serious with your comment.

 

[MCDU]

Heck, Air Wisconsin was flying 95,000 lb 100 seaters as United Express. It doesn't get much weaker than that when it comes to scope. As far as DOH in a UAL/CAL merger... Why should growth from CAL become growth for UAL? We are the ones making money, not UAL. MCDU, you are truly out of touch if you were even half serious with your comment.

Read some history why Air Wisconsin was flying those 16 146's. They got royally screwed by United and by ALPA. They got bought and parted out to gain all their Jet slots in ORD. Many, many furloughs and the creation on lower paying jobs at ACA and UFS. Another ALPA screw job between two ALPA carriers.

 

[Mr.B]

Heck, Air Wisconsin was flying 95,000 lb 100 seaters as United Express. It doesn't get much weaker than that when it comes to scope. As far as DOH in a UAL/CAL merger... Why should growth from CAL become growth for UAL? We are the ones making money, not UAL. MCDU, you are truly out of touch if you were even half serious with your comment.

UAL made $695M in 07, CAL $556M. Both lost $$$$ in 4th Q 07.

CAL has announced expansion, UAL has not. Both are a likely/unlikely to expand. In fact....

However, Kellner did acknowledge reports that the U.S. is "on the cusp" of an economic recession. The airline will be "watching future bookings closely," and it has the ability to defer some capital spending by postponing projects.

Point is, a merger is nothing more that a deal to enrich a few. We will be left holding the bag. Personally, I hope for a CAL/UAL merger with CAL running the airline but it's all a crap shoot anyway.

Cheers

 

[Shrek]

AWACoff..........the only thing wrong with your statement about UAL not making money is unfortunately the TRUTH.

The UAL name will stay..........who knows who will actually run the 'new' airline.........

 

[LJDRVR]

The UAL name will stay..........who knows who will actually run the 'new' airline.........

Nothing but my opinion, but I think you're wrong on both counts. Continetal has a much better reputation with consumers. You management team is only looking to put a bunch of cash in their pockets. The folks in Houston run a much better airline. Not bragging, just facts.

I don't think a merger is as likely as y'all think. 100 777's? No way.

 

[stillflyn]

Heck, Air Wisconsin was flying 95,000 lb 100 seaters as United Express. It doesn't get much weaker than that when it comes to scope. As far as DOH in a UAL/CAL merger... Why should growth from CAL become growth for UAL? We are the ones making money, not UAL. MCDU, you are truly out of touch if you were even half serious with your comment.

UAL made more money than CAL in 2007. Check your facts.

Stillflyn

 

[SuperFLUF]

..... Continetal has a much better reputation with consumers.......

Maybe at present with frequent travelers.

Otherwise United has worldwide name recognition that CAL does not. My bet is that if (and a big if) a merger did happen, the UAL name would prevail. The investors behind such a transaction would most likely prefer for CAL's mgmt team to run the show. OR even wilder than that, I would not be surprised at all if Gordo shows back up in the mix somehow.

Yes United made money in 07. The number I saw was 406 mil net profit for UAL and 566 mil for CAL. Also, CAL did make a profit in the 4th qtr.

But even if that 600+ mil figure is correct, did UAL make more than CAL in direct proportion to their size & potential?............No.

 

[Visceral]

Back to the original post, I've heard Bryan Bedford is down on his knees praying for a UAL/CAL merger with the ensuing loss of scope. He knows when this happens, he will have hit the jackpot flying E170s and E190s for Continited.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

DOH is not part of ALPA Merger Policy.

 

[Jetjockey]

What makes anyone so sure that the more restrictive scope clause (50 seat) won't stay in place. It could work the other way. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[Superpilot92]

Back to the original post, I've heard Bryan Bedford is down on his knees praying for a UAL/CAL merger with the ensuing loss of scope. He knows when this happens, he will have hit the jackpot flying E170s and E190s for Continited.

Everyone better hope that doesnt happen. The last thing we need in this industry is Regionals taking over even more flying that should be done by mainline pilots. I hope the CAL guys fight tooth and nail to not let that happen. It would be a direct hit to the QOL and career expectations of CAL pilots. Dont let it happen.

 

[Shrek]

Nothing but my opinion, but I think you're wrong on both counts. Continetal has a much better reputation with consumers. You management team is only looking to put a bunch of cash in their pockets. The folks in Houston run a much better airline. Not bragging, just facts.

I don't think a merger is as likely as y'all think. 100 777's? No way.

Do they run an internal Hooked on Phonics program?!....hope so for your sake

I personally don't think there will be any big mergers in 08. Meaning all the way through the process and blessed by the DOJ.

Managements come and they go..........the name will stay IMHO.

 

[Shrek]

Maybe at present with frequent travelers.

Otherwise United has worldwide name recognition that CAL does not. My bet is that if (and a big if) a merger did happen, the UAL name would prevail. The investors behind such a transaction would most likely prefer for CAL's mgmt team to run the show. OR even wilder than that, I would not be surprised at all if Gordo shows back up in the mix somehow.

Yes United made money in 07. The number I saw was 406 mil net profit for UAL and 566 mil for CAL. Also, CAL did make a profit in the 4th qtr.

But even if that 600+ mil figure is correct, did UAL make more than CAL in direct proportion to their size & potential?............No.

UAL Corporation , the holding company whose primary subsidiary is United Airlines, reported pre-tax income of $695 million for 2007, the highest since 1999. Pre-tax income excluding special items and severance was $606 million, $665 million higher than 2006.

Continental Airlines has reported pre-tax income of $566 million in 2007, up 53% over the pre-tax income of $369 million, reported for the same period of 2006.

Continental's pre-tax income for the full year, excluding previously announced pre-tax special items, was $542 million.

These are the numbers for 2007.

 

[nimtz]

Well glad to see things are starting out harmoniously with the pre-merger talk. Just wait till the DEN guys bring up the 'screw' campaign...

 

[LJDRVR]

Do they run an internal Hooked on Phonics program?!....hope so for your sake

I personally don't think there will be any big mergers in 08. Meaning all the way through the process and blessed by the DOJ.

Managements come and they go..........the name will stay IMHO.

I think you're right. And for Krissakes, go easy on me! I just learned to read and write a year ago, cut me some slack.:laugh:

 

[LJDRVR]

Maybe at present with frequent travelers.

Otherwise United has worldwide name recognition that CAL does not. ....I would not be surprised at all if Gordo shows back up in the mix somehow.

No, with all customers across the board. As far as name recognition goes, you may be right, but doesn't CAL fly to more countries than any other airline?

As far as Gordo goes, I think you're on to something. There are thousands of United FA's he hasn't got the chance to hit on yet. Now we see the real reason behind the merger mania

 

[AWACoff]

Come on guys...making some good money for one year isn't going to cut it in this business. If CAL is not expanding, why are we having a net increase in airframes on property? Expansion...they sure aren't lawn ornaments? As far as DOH, good luck with that. It turned out really well for US Airways East. On the flip side, it's nice to see United turn such a healthy profit. Hopefully they can continue in the future so that my friends over there can enjoy a good career.

As far as the 146 history at AWAC...I know all too well what happened. A specific amount of up to 100 seaters (146 only) where allowed to be flown by AWAC (not Air Wisconsin, United still owns that paper company). A few of the 146 were ex-US Air mainline aircraft.

UAL made $695M in 07, CAL $556M. Both lost $$$$ in 4th Q 07.

CAL has announced expansion, UAL has not. Both are a likely/unlikely to expand. In fact....

However, Kellner did acknowledge reports that the U.S. is "on the cusp" of an economic recession. The airline will be "watching future bookings closely," and it has the ability to defer some capital spending by postponing projects.

Point is, a merger is nothing more that a deal to enrich a few. We will be left holding the bag. Personally, I hope for a CAL/UAL merger with CAL running the airline but it's all a crap shoot anyway.

Cheers

 

[Reebo]

Just wait till the DEN guys bring up the 'screw' campaign...

It was called "TORQUE"

Try
Our
Real
Quality
United
Experience

I still have the pin.

 

[Shrek]

I think you're right. And for Krissakes, go easy on me! I just learned to read and write a year ago, cut me some slack.:laugh:

:beer:

 

[pipe]

Nothing but my opinion, but I think you're wrong on both counts. Continetal has a much better reputation with consumers. You management team is only looking to put a bunch of cash in their pockets. The folks in Houston run a much better airline. Not bragging, just facts.

I don't think a merger is as likely as y'all think. 100 777's? No way.

That would be reputation with the not-for-profit domestic dirtbag traveler. The international business traveler doesn't know who Continental is.

PIPE

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Yes United made money in 07. The number I saw was 406 mil net profit for UAL and 566 mil for CAL. Also, CAL did make a profit in the 4th qtr.

But even if that 600+ mil figure is correct, did UAL make more than CAL in direct proportion to their size & potential?............No.

UAL potential and productivity is sub standard in the industry.

UAL is poorly run and utilized and should reflect it during a merger process.