Mica trying to fast-track Age 65 - 12/6/07

[Flopgut]

If I were to put what is best for the profession first, I would forget about age 60 and be working to create brand wide and nationwide seniority lists to prevent the whipsaws and give pilots the ability to move between carriers and retain their seniority. I would be so willing to get these things that I would be prepared to shut down the company in order to get it. It would be nice if pilots had the same ability to shop themselves to other airlines that the executives do. That way executives in bankruptcy will be worried about retaining their talented pilots as well as their talented management. Then most of these pilots will happily retire as soon as possible, because given the choice, I guarantee most of them would love to retire as soon as possible and lounge by the beach.

Preventing whipsaws and making seniority portable would do more for the profession than anything to do with age 60. But right now all of these pilots groups are primarily interested in what is best for themselves, and not the profession.

Now that's a post!! Let's work on that stuff!!

I'm afraid that by accepting age 65, and then later enduring the argument for age 70, we are getting further from these possibilities than closer. Matter of fact: It's almost as though we're being fed this possible age change to keep us from working on broadbased changes like what you're talking about. Doesn't it maybe feel like that's what's happening? Does it not feel like maybe the age should have changed already? I mean, IF they really wanted to change it?? Or do they just want our profession locked in this debate perpetually, never gaining ground?

 

[CA1900]

Changing the rule to age 65 won't require anybody to work any longer than they want to. The proposed change doesn't say you have to work to age 65 it says you may work to age 65. It's your choice.

I disagree. If Age 65 passes, contracts will devolve over time such that a pilot's earning potential will go down unless he works until he's 65.

The only ones who will benefit from this are those that'll turn 65 in the next 5-10 years. After that, we're right back where we started: with the same amount of money at retirement, and fewer years left to enjoy it.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Listen all you airline managers, you better upgrade all these bad boys before you institute age 65, or the SWA F/O's will release their anger upon you

SWA FO's make the airline run. Who do you think keeps those planes on time? Who do you think busts their butts to get those 10 minute turns done? Its sure not those over the hill geezers sitting on their fat $250k wallets.

Pissed off SWA FO's will get the attention of SWA management when SWA comes to a grinding halt.

And don't you think AMR pilots waiting 20 years to upgrade are going to be pissed retiring without ever upgrading? AMR FO's are going to go through the roof.

 

[Caveman]

I disagree. If Age 65 passes, contracts will devolve over time such that a pilot's earning potential will go down unless he works until he's 65.

The only ones who will benefit from this are those that'll turn 65 in the next 5-10 years. After that, we're right back where we started: with the same amount of money at retirement, and fewer years left to enjoy it.

If they do devolve it will be our fault. The contractually accepted age right now is age 60. Most CBAs also allow for an earlier retirement if you meet a certain minimum age (usually 50) and certain number of YOS (usually 10). That doesn't have to change unless we negotiate it away. Besides, the main reason age 60 was arbitrarily decided upon was to get rid of more senior (spelled more expensive) pilots. There is no incentive for management to keep pilots on the seniority list longer than they have to. The sooner they retire the cheaper it is for them.

 

[Beetle007]

SWA FO's make the airline run. Who do you think keeps those planes on time? Who do you think busts their butts to get those 10 minute turns done? Its sure not those over the hill geezers sitting on their fat $250k wallets.
quote]

I always thought it was superior airport operations that turns the airplane quickly. If a pilot's preflight takes longer than unloading pax/bags and reloading pax/bags (at any airline), then I would be surprised.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Disregard everything Caveman says. He lists himself as a NEOCON.

That means he was a liberal Democrat turned conservative Republican so he could use the patriotism of the country to dominate foreign affairs beyond American interests prior to 911.

Caveman is a flip flopper. He is for opposite ends of the spectrum at different times.

Caveman has been opposed to changing age 60 and now is for changing age 60.

Caveman is a NEOCON!

What is a NEOCON? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_196286.html

 

[Flopgut]

Changing the rule to age 65 won't require anybody to work any longer than they want to.

Point taken. You are not incorrect, as long as you understand: Earnings beyond normal retirement age are what should be re-amoritized. NOT the earnings of those disciplined to an organizational form that supports the profession equally. Certainly NOT the earnings of the majority.

You should also consider: Maybe this is all just a scam and they don't intend to change it?? They're just rolling this out because they know a certain minority number of pilots will push it. And about the time all pilots get another bite at the apple, they'll float the minority another bad idea? At what point are you going to cut the rope? Honestly, compare that possibility against the idea that, those who need to, go get another job at age 60?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I always thought it was superior airport operations that turns the airplane quickly.

Who do you think gets the clearance, loads the box, does the weight and balance, produces the performance numbers and sets up the entire cockpit for the flight?

Those tasks are not done by airport operations. And those tasks are vital for the flight to block out on time.

Lets see some over the hill geezer try to load an ATC clearance with two intersecting airways without a named intersection. It will take ten minutes for the geezer just to get the right chart out of his bag.

The SWA FO have a lot of control over the system and will react badly should this law change. All they have to do is drag their feet for five extra minutes and when the captain blows up on them look over and say," You do it," while think about how old he is!!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Here is a perfect AP story proving my point about the pilot being ready to retaliate against any further decay of this profession.

AMR, SWA, and other FO's will be PISSED!!!!!!!!

AP
Pilots: Eagle Sale Will Hurt Passengers
Thursday December 6, 7:28 pm ET
By David Koenig, AP Business Writer
Pilots Say AMR's Plan to Sell Eagle Regional Carrier Will Hurt Passengers, Employees
DALLAS (AP) -- Pilots' union officials said Thursday that if AMR Corp. sells the American Eagle regional carrier it would hurt employees and passengers.The union stopped short of outright opposition to a sale.

 

[Caveman]

Point taken. You are not incorrect, as long as you understand: Earnings beyond normal retirement age are what should be re-amoritized. NOT the earnings of those disciplined to an organizational form that supports the profession equally. Certainly NOT the earnings of the majority.

You lost me on this. I read it several times and I don't understand what you are saying. Seriously, I'm not flaming you. I don't understand. Explain please.

 

[Caveman]

Disregard everything Caveman says. He lists himself as a NEOCON.

That means he was a liberal Democrat turned conservative Republican so he could use the patriotism of the country to dominate foreign affairs beyond American interests prior to 911.

Caveman is a flip flopper. He is for opposite ends of the spectrum at different times.

Caveman has been opposed to changing age 60 and now is for changing age 60.

Caveman is a NEOCON!

What is a NEOCON? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_196286.html

Based on their definitions I guess I'm not a neocon. I use the term to mean ultraconservative in the same way the liberal media likes to use it as a pejorative when referring to far right wing thinking people. Actually I'm a libertarian.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

 

[snow-back]

Who do you think gets the clearance, about 30 seconds...maybe 2 minutes if the freq is busy. Less than 30 seconds with ACARS. loads the box, about 1 1/2 minutes for an average flight does the weight and balance, shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes produces the performance numbers maybe 30 seconds and sets up the entire cockpit for the flight 2 1/2 minutes with no distractions ?

Those tasks are not done by airport operations. And those tasks are vital for the flight to block out on time.

Lets see some over the hill geezer try to load an ATC clearance with two intersecting airways without a named intersection. Let's see...OOD070/DPK228 and enter It will take ten minutes for the geezer just to get the right chart out of his bag.

The SWA FO have a lot of control over the system and will react badly should this law change. All they have to do is drag their feet for five extra minutes and when the captain blows up on them look over and say," You do it," while think about how old he is!!

I think you are overstating the difficulty of your job. You can BS the general public, but everyone here knows that you can turn the cockpit and get a Starbucks faster than the ground crew can turn a jet. If you have problems doing that, maybe you should pay more attention during recurrent. I can't think of any "geezers" I've flown with who've had any problems completing any of the tasks you mentioned. The great majority of "geezers" have been more than willing to spilt up duties between flights. If you find yourself relegated to performing all the preflight duties for all the captains you fly with all of the time, it may be an indication of a problem on your side of the cockpit.

 

[Flopgut]

You lost me on this. I read it several times and I don't understand what you are saying. Seriously, I'm not flaming you. I don't understand. Explain please.

I'm saying that wages post age 60 should get a haircut in favor of the guy leaving at 60.

 

[C-21Pilot]

Might be better to write or call Oberstar, looks like Mica's mind is already made up.

21

 

[Caveman]

I'm saying that wages post age 60 should get a haircut in favor of the guy leaving at 60.

Gotcha. I'm not sure I agree, but I understand what you mean. Thanks.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Based on their definitions I guess I'm not a neocon. I use the term to mean ultraconservative in the same way the liberal media likes to use it as a pejorative when referring to far right wing thinking people. Actually I'm a libertarian.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Then you should change your profile because a NEOCON is a very bad word and it doesn't mean ultraconservative. NEOCONs are corporate fascists who wish to take the power of the government out of the elected officials hands and control it from their elite inner circles. NEOCON's are war mongers who want one world government, martial law, and the end of the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and any freedom a free society possess.

NEOCON's are the enemy of America just like Jihadist terrorist.

Being ultraconservative and a libertarian do not agree with being a NEOCON. Your Marine insignia also does not agree with being a NEOCON. I know of no Marines that advocate and promote war. Marines only become involved as a last resort serving with duty and honor.

You should change your profile because NEOCONs are disgusting slime controlled by power and greed.

Put down ultraconservative/libertarian which would be accurate and admirable.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, that's a little bit over the top.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Wow, that's a little bit over the top.

How is defining NEOCON over the top. If you don't know the words you are using you shouldn't use them.

Calling yourself a fascist is not something you should do by mistake.

 

[PCL_128]

Neocons aren't fascists. There's a happy medium somewhere between fascism and libertarianism. I'm not sure that the neocons have found it, but claiming that anything other than libertarian belief is fascism is ridiculous.

 

[XJTAv8r]

Latest update from ALPA

Here´s the latest from ALPA:

Transportation Appropriations Likely to Be Part of Omnibus Spending Bill

Change to pilot age limit depends on bill’s passage.

With the end of the year quickly approaching, U.S. Senate leaders have decided against bringing the Transportation Appropriations conference report to the floor for a vote and instead have agreed to expedite the process by rolling it into an omnibus spending package with 10 other unfinished Fiscal 2008 spending bills. The measure would require approval by both the House and the Senate.

The Transportation Appropriations conference report that includes language increasing the mandatory retirement age of airline pilots to 65 was approved by the House of Representatives on November 14 by a 270-147vote. The Senate scuttled plans to vote on the conference report before the Thanksgiving recess after President Bush threatened to veto the bill.

Bush is making similar threats to veto any omnibus spending bill that does not meet his overall funding level. Democrats have proposed spending $23 billion more than Bush but have shaved $10.6 billion from their original plan in an effort to either win over the president or to lure enough congressional Republicans to trump a veto threat.

Much of the federal government is currently operating under a stopgap spending bill known as a continuing resolution (CR), which expires December 14. Congress will probably enact another short-term CR, lasting about a week, to December 21, if the appropriations work is not completed by December 14.

Negotiations between the White House and Congress will ultimately decide whether an agreement on an omnibus spending package can be reached before the end of the year. If a deal can be completed and the president signs the legislation, it will trigger a change to the upper age limit. If a deal cannot be reached, Congress will be forced to pass another CR—funding the government through the early part of next year while allowing negotiations to resume when Congress reconvenes in mid-January 2008.