airplane advice

[cyork25]

Okay Guys,

We are thinking about adding an airplane to our fleet, we just don't know which one to think about. It will fly 100-200 hrs per year, needs to seat 11-14, the more range the better, 2 to 6 mil range. Any suggestions?

 

[340drvr]

yow, tough to find. Jet or turboprop? What's the average mission?
D-Jet, maybe, or, turboprop, one of the big Jetstreams?

 

[ultrarunner]

Beech 1900?

 

[cyork25]

probably 700 to 1400 mile trips with the seats full.

 

[Hawker800]

1400 NM seats full, 14 paxs, 6 mil top of budget. I may be wrong but I think you need to add another 20 mil and get something in the large Gulfstream class.

 

[ksu_aviator]

probably 700 to 1400 mile trips with the seats full.

I'll post this for your consideration:

I operate a Merlin IVC.

Assuming 14 passengers at 215 lbs, you can travel 3 hours at 250kts TAS with 1+ hours of reserve. For every hour beyond that, subtract 500 lbs in pax and bags. You could probably take 8 pax 1400 nm nonstop in still air.

We have a 13 seat configuration that is spacious and comfortable for the passengers. A full lav and plenty of luggage space are colocated in the tail. Because we use club seating, you could easily reconfigure to fit 14 seats and still be comfortable.

The aircraft operates at about $1100 per hour.

Purchasing and refurbishing a cargo Merlin/Metro will run about $2 million (less if you can buy a heavy and avoid the conversion).

The aircraft is very reliable and rugged and can be operated with one or two pilots.

I hope this helps.

 

[Toolowflyer]

what about a dornier 328 prop or jet 1700nm/1200nm range 310/370kts, large cabin and bag. apu......

 

[ultrarunner]

what about a dornier 328 prop or jet 1700nm/1200nm range 310/370kts, large cabin and bag. apu......

The outfit only wants to spend 6mil, MAX.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Saab 340?

 

[GEXDriver]

G1159...

 

[Quimby]

Okay Guys,

We are thinking about adding an airplane to our fleet, we just don't know which one to think about. It will fly 100-200 hrs per year, needs to seat 11-14, the more range the better, 2 to 6 mil range. Any suggestions?

DC-9-10

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

I think there's a CV-880 parked in the backyard of a "guy" in Memphis you might be able to have for that $ amount!

 

[pilotyip]

won't do it

DC-9-10

The 10 will never make 1400 miles except with a 100 Kt tailwind, Want a jet 737-200 I think has a bit longer range than the DC-9-10 and these old jets are really cheap almost scrape metal prices without engines. We bought a DC-9-30 for 200K, less engines, figure a M for engines. But both of these airplanes are maintenance monsters. However the CV-5800, runs about 6M, 1500 NM range 300 KTs cruise go in and out of 3,500 strip.

 

[Quimby]

DC-9-10

DC-9-10super ER....

 

[johnsonrod]

Older Jetstar...

 

[GVFlyer]

I like GEXDriver's recommendation.

A G-II will cost $1.5 - 2.7 million, carry a dozen people 2,400 nm with a DOC of $4,244 / hr.

A G-IIB goes for $2.3 - 3.5 million and will fly 3,500 nm at a DOC of $4,035 / hr.

The G-III will set you back $5.5 - $7.5 million and fly 3,600 nm at a DOC of $3,779 / hr.


GV

 

[cyork25]

we actually have been looking at a GIIB or a GIII, what is the situation with noise and europe? I was reading that even with hush kits the early G's may not be let in. What is the scoop?

 

[GVFlyer]

I haven't flown a GII / GIII lately, but I think this list is approximately correct.

Only aircraft conforming to Stage 3 are permitted irrespective of weight in the following countries.

1. Australia
2. Austria
3. Belgium
4. Hong Kong
5. Japan
6. Macau
7. Singapore
8. Switzerland

USA airports are regulated by Federal Law defined in the Airport Noise Capacity Act, ANCA. Airports requiring Stage 3 compliance are quite limited at this time and include:

1. Santa Monica, CA.
2. Naples, FL.
3. Jackson Hole, WY.
4. Lake Tahoe, CA.
(noise limit can be met only by Stage 3 aircraft)
5. Long Beach, CA.

At Teterboro NJ, a policy agreeing to limit operations to Stage 3 only aircraft is currently being implemented. Initially, this is a voluntary restriction.

Van Nuys CA, is conducting an FAA Part 161 noise study with the intention to either apply a day time noise level limit of 77dBA or to outright ban Stage 2 aircraft, either way it will eliminate Stage 2 GII/III aircraft.

Some US airports apply night time curfews to Stage 2 business jets. Some examples are.

1. Aspen, CO.
2. Buchanan Field, CA.
3. Kalamazoo, MI.
4. Islip Long Island, NY.
5. Martha’s Vineyard, MA.
6. Orlando Exec, FL.
7. Palm Beach, FL.
8. Washington National, DC.
9. San Diego, CA.
10.Santa Barbara, CA.
11. Raleigh Durham, NC.
12. New Haven, CT.
13. Van Nuys, CA.

Presently the following individual European airports specify Stage 3 only.

1. Stockholm, Bromma, Sweden.
2. Tel-Aviv, Israel.
3. Belfast City, Ireland.
4. London, Farnborough, England.
5. London, Northolt, England.
6. Berlin, Templehof, Germany.
7. Brussels National, Belgium.
8. Amsterdam, Holland.

Some individual airports ban or restrict the passage of Stage 2 aircraft below the 34,000KG (75,000lb) threshold.

1. Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, London Stage 2 GII/III banned at night.
2. Paris, le Bourget, Orly, Charles De Gaulle, Stage 2 arrivals at night banned.
3. Dusseldorf, Stage 2 aircraft restricted to operate between 07.00 and 18.00.
4. Barajas, Madrid, Stage 2 aircraft restricted from operating between 00.00 and 06.00. Stage 3 aircraft below noise category CR 4 permitted.
5. Liege, Belgium, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
6. Charleroi, Belgium. Stage 2 aircraft banned.
7. Antwerp, Belgium, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
8. Brussels, Belgium, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
9. Toulouse-Blagnac, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
10. Cote d’Azur Nice France, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 23.15 and after 06.00.
11. Fiumicino, Rome, Applied to EU Director to ban Stage 2 movements, time frame not known.
12. Leipzig, Germany, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 22.00 and after 06.00.
13. Reykjavik, Iceland, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
14. Belfast City, Ireland, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
15. Ben Gurion, Israel, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
16. Schiphol, Netherlands, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
17. Tegel, Berlin Germany, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
18. Sofia, Bulgaria, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
19. Bucharest, Rumania, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
20. Budapest, Hungary, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 23.00 and after 06.00.
21. Frankfurt Germany, Stage 2 aircraft restricted to operate between 07.00 and 18.00 on weekdays, No operations allowed on weekend.
22. Hamburg Germany, Stage 2 aircraft banned, QTA equipped GII/III may operate.
23. Hanover, Germany, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 21.00 and after 05.00.
24. Munich Germany, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 21.00 and after 05.00.
25. Okecie Warsaw, Poland, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 22.00 and after 06.00.
26. Linate Italy, Applied to EU Director to ban Stage 2 movements.
27. Malpensa Italy, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
28. Nurnberg Germany, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 20.00 and after 06.00.
29. Oslo Norway, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
30. Ostend Belgium, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
31. Ostrava Czech Republic, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
32. Lisbon/Madeira/Porto Portugal, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 00.00 and after 06.00.
33. Trondheim Norway, Stage 2 aircraft banned.
34. Edinburgh, Scotland, Stage 2 aircraft curfew limited to operations up to 22.00 and after 06.00.

This list is not complete, but it gives you an idea of typical restrictions found in Europe.


Noise restrictions are in place, or legislation has been enacted to limit the operation of Stage 2 aircraft in some other countries.

1. Argentina, proposed legislation in line with the Brazilian phase out.
2. Brazil, Stage 3 only by 2010
3. Chile, Stage 3 only by January 1, 2009
4. Columbia, Stage 3 only by end 2007. Applies to Bogotá. New A/C registrations must be certified to Stage 3.
5. Philippines, Stage 3 only by end 2007. No further data available.
6. South Africa, Stage 3 only by 2010.

A current listing can be found at the Boeing Web Site:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/

Addition of a stage III hush kit such as those provided by Stage III Technologies and Quiet Technology Aerospace will allow a G-II / G-III to meet any of the above listed noise requirements.


GV





~

 

[Toolowflyer]

dornier 328 prop,jet

The outfit only wants to spend 6mil, MAX.

...you will get a 328 JET easy for below 6M, prop should be available for much less...

http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1127272

 

[mzaharis]

Here's the Gulftream Noise information manual, if it is of any help to anyone. . .


http://www.gulfstream.com/product_support/technical_pubs/pdfs/noisemanual.pdf

 

[cyork25]

What can you buy a GIII for and what do we need to look for on it as far as equipment? Flightsafety offers AC courses and DC courses, which system is better and when does it change? Will the QTA stage III approved hush kit let us go everywhere?

 

[Muddauber]

Looks to me like GVFlyer already answered your first and last questions.

 

[GVFlyer]

Here's the answer to the other two.

The G-III AC electrical system is fundamentally the same as the G-IV electrical system.

You'll see everything on a G-II from the original Litton Carousels on up. I'd probably look for a pair of Universal UNS-1Ms or equivalent. On a G-III, Dual Bendix EFIS-10 Flight Directors and Dual GNS-XLS would be a nice setup.

On both aircraft, I'd want RVSM certification, Allied Signal EGPWS, TCAS II w/change 7 and Dual V81 Displays, FM immunity/8.33 spacing, Mode S transponders, HF with SELCAL, AFIS and Airshow.

GV

 

[cyork25]

I guess to be more specific with my noise question, I was reading that europe may be banning any aircraft that was not certified stage III, this would all but eliminate the point of a hush kit. Is there any truth to this? Are there any SB's we will want on a GIII? Any other pointers would be helpful.

 

[SkyGirl]

As has been stated before, these kits make the airplane stage III certified.

http://www.qtaerospace.com/


_SkyGirl_

 

[blzr]

Maybe an older lear 60? What size runway, and alt MSL will you be departing from? Wow dude, that is a del-enima. What kind of ride are the people in the back used to? Are they ok with a very noisy sewerpipe for 3+ hours at a time? Now I could see looking for a 1500 mile aircraft with 8 seats for 2-6 mil, or 10-12 seats for 8-10 mil. Heck, I can hook you up with a comfortable 8 seater, 1800 mile quiet turbofan 460kt tru for under 2 mil.

 

[cands]

saab 340
http://www.controller.com/listings/...812.htm?guid=F6C1A00FCCC54C698CF5D2E0F3D66A26

 

[cyork25]

Actually, we already have a lear 60, we intend on using it for the run around. We are actually leaning towards the GIII for the long trips. My main concern with it is this stuff about europe, I still haven't heard, I read some stuff about them not letting in anybody that wasn't originally certified stage III.

 

[GVFlyer]

We are actually leaning towards the GIII for the long trips. My main concern with it is this stuff about europe, I still haven't heard, I read some stuff about them not letting in anybody that wasn't originally certified stage III.

I don't know where you read this. The only chatter in Europe that I have heard is that a few airports are considering what is termed "marginal compliance". This is actually a higher noise standard (somewhere between Stage III and Stage IV) which would allow these airports to ban aircraft not originally certificated as CFM36 Stage III.

It is my understanding that QTA's Gulfstream Stage 3 Hush Kit meets marginal compliance requirements with only a change to the Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement.


GV

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you buy a G-III, buy a DC powered airplane. Do not buy an AC powered one. I'm sure 8 of 10 qualified Gulfstream MX guys will tell you this..