Flight time and bum question.. what to do

[hindsight2020]

As a low-time dude, I was wondering what you folks consider a nominal amount of flight time a year (or monthly however you want to look at it) as a bum before you'd consider a regional job.

Reason I ask is we got a 2 yr upgrade at the unit (presently flight time independent), so depending on how much PIC one gets from that point it could be potentially 5 years before I would be competitive for a carrier of interest. As much as the thought of first year regional FO keeps me up at night, I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket by attempting to bum for that long of a time, or have a full time job locally to never materialize, and now I've foregone 5 year seniority somewhere else (probably holding CA by then).

I know the best scenario would have been to get on with said regional before going to UPT, but that wasn't an option back then (no hours for it) so I'm presented with the current scenario. I'd still commute from the squadron city if I were to consider it (yep, commute to rsv = suck), just wondering what's your cutoff point hours-wise at the unit before it'd be worthwhile getting that seniority number at a regional. Thanks

 

[Fox-Tree]

What kind of aircraft do you fly in the Guard?

Also,
What would it hurt to pursue the regional job? If you get it, try it. Meanwhile you keep you eyes open for TDYs, temp-tech positions, an AGR to open, whatever. If that option presents itself, mil leave from the regional. If not, you know you can start building PIC after your mil AC upgrade in two years. I doubt it would be sooner than that at a regional but eventually, you'll be building PIC at both spots.

Just my .02

 

[pkober]

Go for the regional job after your seasoning days. Get on with a regional, complete training and consolidation time, then start taking military leave.

It sounds like you are in a heavy unit. My units bums are kept very busy and get plenty of AD days, including long tours.

Remember, once you complete your seasoning days that you are a part timer in the ANG. You will have to balance your time between civilian flying and military flying.

The order always goes - family, civilain job then ANG. Never shall that order be shuffled to remove family from #1.
luck.

Good luck. You are in a great position and will have two excellent careers.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yeah, I'm at a heavy unit. I've asked around and the way it's looking I may be able to fly about 2-3x a week (after seasoning) while bumming and log about ¿high 300-low 400ish a year?, that's prob doing local trips. If one were to go on TDYs and the like then obviously the hours would go up for the month.

I've also been told that the bum money pot is good and 4 man days a week has been "commonplace". I acknowledge that's pretty damn good but I just get the feeling that I should get a number at a regional to play it safe, since bumming is really volatile work (the way it's been explained to me anyways) and even though I would def. clear more at the end of the month initially bumming than messing with the regional, I am a little hesistant to make it [bum] my sole source of income on a long term basis. I do intend on staying at the unit city, the fiancé has a good job and likes it here, and I'm happy when the family is happy.

In response to the "what would it hurt?" question, the reason I'm tip toeing around the regional gig is because I've grown to feel as though things are offly political in most workplaces, and the decision to partake a regional job might affect leadership's perception of my involvement at the unit, essentially shooting my own foot and my ability to take advantage of opportunities that would otherwise be made available to me if I just "stood still". Perhaps I've misread the environment since I am still to get off orders and start flying the line part-time, but I've experienced office politics before joining the Guard/Reserve ranks and as a FNG I am hyper-sensitive to the notion of how people get blackballed, the impact of first impresssions and the "perception is reality" mantra. But maybe I make too much of that concern. Honestly, that's the only reason I haven't put this to bed and taken pkober's advice of finishing MQT and go get my number at the regional and start mix and matching with mil leave (which sounds like excellent advice). I'm relatively young and just looking to place myself in a position to provide a decent living for my family and maximize the QOL, and the quicker I get off living on the part-time employment status (or regional FO pay conversely) the better chance I have at succeeding in doing so.

 

[CFIIer]

Dude, I'm in the same boat as you, except i've got the option of taking another year of active duty orders. Looking back, I wish I had gotten that regional job and mil leaved it, but like your name says, hindsight is 20/20. I think finding the best regional that works for you and jumping on is probably your best bet. Mil leave as much as you can, and before you know it, you'll be PIC at both places.

 

[Jafo73]

Well, I didn't have to do the regional thing, but, due to conversion and threats of no money several of the younger guys got hired at a local regional, all took orders as soon as they could and have no desire to ever to go back to their regionals. It would depend on which regional (if there still is a good one to work at) would work for you and what things are like at your unit. If orders/man days aren't an issue it might be better to stay a bum. Especially if you can get hours and aren't worried about health benefits (you said your wife has a good job...).

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Dude get your seniority number ASAP and take mil leave. Simple enough!

 

[GenericPilot]

c-130 pilot pojnt of view

My guard unit has 5 regional airline pilots. Two are aircraft commanders, two are new C-130 copilots, and one is a navigator who picked up all his tickets. None are Captains at their respective airlines due to being junior.

It worked out well for them. One guys in particular only flew for the airline for about 2-3 months, finishing IOE and then getting furloughed. Free airline benefits (travel) ever since. It's been 2.5 years now and he has been on active orders most of the time and is approaching 1000 hours PIC time in the C-130. He can go back to the airline with the assurance of decent pay and an eventual upgrade on the CRJ, or he can hunt out some more active duty opportunities and keep banking his 0-3 active duty salary.

For the guys in our unit that did not go fly for the regionals, they are making good money but do not have the part 121 time, glass cockpit, M/E jet, and the other experiences that an airline job can give. They chose not to live in a crashpad at a hub and to not worry about furloughs. Some of these guys are bankers, sales reps, or grad students. They are getting calls from the fractionals, but no major airline interview calls.

I didn't go to a regional, but I probably should have. I've made some great money, put plenty of PIC time in my book, and landed a very solid part 91 job (few overnights) across the street from my guard unit . I have no plans to go the majors, but it is always an option. I did get an offer to interview at Delta, but my wife wasn't too supportive of an airline career (she's a doc). I have some very lucrative non-flying options that trump most airline gigs. I currently fly around 300-400 hours per year and have a blast. If I flew for a an airline ore fractional I would end up flying 1000+ a year and probably hate it.

My recommendation..find a regional with a good fit to your unit. Short (one leg) or no commute. Choose a quick PIC upgrade and quick hour builder over jet time. However, play good politics at your unit by flying as much as you can and by also learning about the non-flying duties (tactics, ORI/ORE, schedules, special projects that can show you are a leader..and other junk like that). You need to become and A/C and then an IP ASAP. It looks good on your airline resume. then pick up some free education such as a graduate degree in business or accounting. Good luck and invest well (TSP).

 

[airgator]

I'm in the same boat. I flew around 600 hours my first year at my unit, but our long term orders ended, so I took a job with Kalitta. I've been flying the whale for a little while now, but don't know if I should take mil leave and go back to the unit and upgrade there, or keep flying and upgrade in the 74 in a year. Bumming at my C-5 unit will get me 500 hrs in a year if I fly my ass off, but QOL and fun will be at Kalitta. I'm just trying to get to Fedex or UPS like everyone else.

 

[Fox-Tree]

In response to the "what would it hurt?" question, the reason I'm tip toeing around the regional gig is because I've grown to feel as though things are offly political in most workplaces, and the decision to partake a regional job might affect leadership's perception of my involvement at the unit, essentially shooting my own foot and my ability to take advantage of opportunities that would otherwise be made available to me if I just "stood still". Perhaps I've misread the environment since I am still to get off orders and start flying the line part-time, but I've experienced office politics before joining the Guard/Reserve ranks and as a FNG I am hyper-sensitive to the notion of how people get blackballed, the impact of first impresssions and the "perception is reality" mantra. But maybe I make too much of that concern. Honestly, that's the only reason I haven't put this to bed and taken pkober's advice of finishing MQT and go get my number at the regional and start mix and matching with mil leave (which sounds like excellent advice).

YGBSM!! This sounds like stuff I heard on active duty.
Every Guard unit is different but if this is really the case at yours, I’d have to say that’s a first. After seasoning, you’re a traditional Guardsman – period – dot. If your unit’s leadership is that hard core about your participation, then they probably should pony up and give you an AGR slot or some other full time position. Otherwise, you need to feed your family and pay the bills. If they won’t pay you, someone else needs to (like a regional airline).

Obviously, you need to be ready for your missions and maintain your qualifications and proficiency. However, you can only do that if they have days or when you burn UTAs and FTPs. If you start blowing off opportunities to gain experience, if they present themselves (especially as a new guy), then you may run into trouble. I doubt anyone would begrudge you the time to go through new hire school and get checked out at an airline if you get hired.

Not everyone in a Guard unit can (or wants to) be full time and I can’t imagine you have leadership that doesn’t accept (and probably embrace) that reality. At least I hope not.
Good Luck.

 

[GenericPilot]

More leadership stuff

In response to Fox-Tree, the guard is changing (at least at my unit).
We joke that our guard unit is more like "active duty" than the active duty guys are. The team players get quick upgrades to A/C and IP, and the guys that do the "mins" sometimes hang out as a copilot for years. Non-flying participation is very important. Preparation for Operational readiness Inspections/Exercises take up a lot of our time. Frequent voluntary deployments that are quasi-mandatory pop up, and we are expected to help out. TACC and the guard bureau are building trips that are very busy with little down time. Tactical training flying requirements have increased with the advent of NVGs. New technology has also made it more difficult to fly as a min timer. Throw in constant threat of BRAC and it gets stressful for
the full-time staff and pure guard bums who refuse to move out of the area. We occasionally have fun, but not like the previous generations did.

However, a "well behaved" pilot who plays the game and acts like an "adult" can still thrive as a part timer with a civ flying job. It's just a lot tougher than it used to be. I have heard of more than one A/C or copilot who pulled some stupid stunts (on the ground off duty and in the air) and were placed in the min fly/min pay penalty box.

All these comments are from a guy that took a long time to actually become a team player, used to bash the system, and pulled a few stupid stunts as an
0-2/0-3. It still worked out for me, but I don't depend on the guard for my paycheck. I'm 18.9 years
into my career and have the option to "retire" in 2009. I'm looking to expand my non-flying education and eventually just fly my own plane for fun (airshow stuff).

In short, be smart and follow the party line. Have fun and remember that the Air Guard/Reserves aren't like they were for the previous generations. However, it's a great way to make above average pay, get a free education, and see the world...all while serving your country (and occasionally getting shot at).

Good Luck!

 

[duece123]

good stuff, thanks for the info gray beards. I am about to wrap up UPT in a few months and eventually get back to the unit (after The Rock). Like to see everyones point of view.

 

[hindsight2020]

Awesome replies, I truly appreciate the intel.

Regarding seniority. When does one officially begin to accrue seniority at the airline? Day 1 at the schoolhouse? IOE?

Regarding mil leave. Does one need to furnish a copy of said orders to suffice for mil leave? What about when one has a batch of man days a week and the regular TPs and UTAs a month? How does one substantiate mil leave in instances where there are non-continuous orders?

Thanks. Still trying to figure out how to hedge my bets for the upcoming years.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

MDINC...I' mean hindsight!

Regarding seniority. When does one officially begin to accrue seniority at the airline? Day 1 at the schoolhouse? IOE?

My airline was from day one

Regarding mil leave. Does one need to furnish a copy of said orders to suffice for mil leave? What about when one has a batch of man days a week and the regular TPs and UTAs a month? How does one substantiate mil leave in instances where there are non-continuous orders?

It depends. Some units provide orders that include your UTA's for the year. It also depends on your airline's requirements but orders should be all you need.

Are you with the KBAD unit?

 

[hindsight2020]

airwinger , check your PMs

 

[kc10/c130]

I gotta go with Fox-Tree on this one but I'm a FDX'r as well. I still have never seen the crap you're talking about with the "perception of involvement in the unit". Only thing I see is the high ops tempo and guys trying to get airline jobs. Good luck and do what works best for your family.

 

[flyboy006]

i was in the same boat, new co-pilot very little flying at the unit so I had to do what was best for myself and family so sucked it up financially took a regional job and did the guard thing and finally moved on to the majors. Money wise if you look at the immediate, true the guard will pay way more than a regional at first but if u can somehow make it by for a while especially if u r single then i would say go to the regionals anyday. plus right now the upgrade times are good and the attrition rate or guys moving on has gone up..good luck

 

[flyboy006]

my .02 cents

 

[hoover]

I thought people joined the military to serve and protect their fellow citizens, but apparently all you care about is flight time in the log book so you can go get a job elsewhere. Can I have my money back please? I and my fellow taxpayers did not fund your training so you could jump ship to an airline at first opportunity

 

[bssthound]

I and my fellow taxpayers did not fund your training so you could jump ship to an airline at first opportunity

He's a part-time Reservist. He's pondering whether or not to fly at a regional in addition to his Reserve job that "you fund." Any guy going from the military to the airlines at the earliest or ANY opportunity has fulfilled his obligation to serve and protect you.