NWA EMB 175LR Mainline

[jetflier]

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...2275/a07-23076_3424b3.htm#LegalMatters_112223

The Aircraft are narrowbody commercial jet aircraft. Seating capacity in Northwest’s two class configuration is 76 seats. These aircraft are powered by two CF34-8E5 model commercial jet engines manufactured by General Electric and have a two-person cockpit. The Aircraft fly on Northwest’s domestic route system.

...Another $21.00 /hour paycut from the present DC9 contract payrates of $125/hour, (used to be $191/hour)

 

[Occam's Razor]

Not quite.

The EMB-175 will be flown by Airlink. If/when NWA buys the EMB-190 variant, the mainline will fly them.

The pay rates are set. Yes, our pay rates are lower than they were for a brief period in 2004.

The pay cuts were across-the-board. I read on that interweb thingy that it may have had something to do with bankruptcy.

 

[xjhawk]

In exercising remedies under an Indenture, the Controlling Party or the Instructing Holders, as applicable, may direct the Subordination Agent (to direct the Loan Trustee) or Loan Trustee, as applicable, to lease the Aircraft subject to the lien of that Indenture to any person (including Northwest) so long as in doing so the Loan Trustee acts in a “commercially reasonable” manner within the meaning of the Uniform Commercial Code


does this mean the A/C can be leased to ....lets say Compass.....i am sure it does. where do you get the pay rates......what pay rates include a EMB AC in the NWA system?

 

[Occam's Razor]

does this mean the A/C can be leased to ....lets say Compass.....i am sure it does. where do you get the pay rates......what pay rates include a EMB AC in the NWA system?

1. Yes.
2. In Section 3. Listed by seat size...not type.

 

[IronCityBlue]

While its certainlygreat news that the E190 is still "owned" by the mainline, one has to wonder how long that will last. The current line in the sand is to outsource everything Canadair produces, and everything EMB makes as well except the 190. The line is the 175/190. Gotta wonder how strong a line that is, since its the exact same plane with one tube plug seperating "regional" against "the mainline." Time for scope to reverse direction and reclaim flying, but I doubt that will happen.

 

[JohnDoe]

2. In Section 3. Listed by seat size...not type.

Thats strange......I'm looking at pages 3-12 thru 3-16 and there is a column labled "EMB195." So yes xjhawk, there is an emb specific rate.

And if anybody was wondering....you have to be at year 10 (yes, ten) EMB195 pay as an FO to exceed current year 2 DC-9 pay. And those are not paycut rates. Those were newly "negotiated."


IronCityBlue:
It is ironic you mentioned "line in the sand" with regard to scope. I remember that phrase being tossed around by the union with regard to the over 50 seat aircraft.

 

[Fly4hire]

Not quite.

The EMB-175 will be flown by Airlink. If/when NWA buys the EMB-190 variant, the mainline will fly them.

The pay rates are set. Yes, our pay rates are lower than they were for a brief period in 2004.

The pay cuts were across-the-board. I read on that interweb thingy that it may have had something to do with bankruptcy.

Standing a little to close to reactor are we?

Everyone took a 40% cut. If the E195 becomes the DC9 replacement, it's pay rate will be nearly 60% less than the previous DC9 rate. No other aircraft on the property is currently in danger of being immediately replaced by an even lower paying category variant. That only effects ~2000 of our seniority list.

Some are a little more equal than others in the new TA.

Found a cool picture of McClain recently:

http://research.history.org/Histori.../ThemeRevolution/Loyalist/tar_and_feather.jpg

 

[LearLove]

The line is the 175/190.

Time for scope to reverse direction and reclaim flying, but I doubt that will happen.

well guess the line in the sand is the 190. Republic flies the 175 (86 seats) for US Air. While I wish scope could reverse and the mainline gets all 70 seat and bigger (if not everything from J-3 on up as it should be) I highly doubt it will ever "reverse". Once its gone its never comming back.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Air Canada has -190s mainline, as does JetBlue.

cliff
YIP

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Problem is that you can never reverse the trend. Here's a (non-NWA) example. Delta gives up scope to allow 76 seat RJs. 76 seat RJs operate for a year or two in the hands of SKW, CMR, Mesa, etc.. Those airlines hire more, train more, staff more. Then DALPA comes along and says, "We want nothing more than 70 seats flown at the Connection Carriers." Great!!! More mainline jobs. Problem is, the cat's out of the proverbial bag. All those ALPA pilots flying those "Connection" airplanes now have a claim to them. ALPA can't really say, "We acknowledge your right to those aircraft, but for the greater good we choose to support mainline's bid to take them over your bid to keep them." That would open ALPA national up to a lawsuit the RJDC and Nicole Brown Simpson's family can only have wet dreams about.

The point is that once scope is given up, it can never be taken back. If you concede pay rates or duty rigs in a contract, you can win those provisions back. However, once you give a seat capacity away to another ALPA carrier (ie. Mesaba), that aircraft and that payscale is lost forever. You will never be able to bargain it back.

The Dc-9/A320 payscale is bad, but liveable. Don't give it away to those who are circling around your flying waiting for the scraps.

Food for thought anyway. I don't work here. I only hope to.....

 

[jetflier]

Standing a little to close to reactor are we?

Everyone took a 40% cut. If the E195 becomes the DC9 replacement, it's pay rate will be nearly 60% less than the previous DC9 rate. No other aircraft on the property is currently in danger of being immediately replaced by an even lower paying category variant. That only effects ~2000 of our seniority list.

Some are a little more equal than others in the new TA.

Found a cool picture of McClain recently:

http://research.history.org/Histori.../ThemeRevolution/Loyalist/tar_and_feather.jpg

Occam seems to be "yes" voter, "kool-aid" drinker at NWA,...nuf said

 

[On Your Six]

Hi!

Air Canada has -190s mainline, as does JetBlue.

cliff
YIP

Air Canada mainline also flies the E175 (unlike the majors here in the States). Jazz flies the CR2 and CR9.

 

[Blade Runner]

However, once you give a seat capacity away to another ALPA carrier (ie. Mesaba), that aircraft and that payscale is lost forever. You will never be able to bargain it back.

Not unless you absorb the entire pilot group(ie. Mesaba etc.) into the NWA seniority list. Then negotiate on the principle NWA flying is done by NWA pilots only.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Problem is that you can never reverse the trend. Here's a (non-NWA) example. Delta gives up scope to allow 76 seat RJs. 76 seat RJs operate for a year or two in the hands of SKW, CMR, Mesa, etc.. Those airlines hire more, train more, staff more. Then DALPA comes along and says, "We want nothing more than 70 seats flown at the Connection Carriers." Great!!! More mainline jobs. Problem is, the cat's out of the proverbial bag. All those ALPA pilots flying those "Connection" airplanes now have a claim to them. ALPA can't really say, "We acknowledge your right to those aircraft, but for the greater good we choose to support mainline's bid to take them over your bid to keep them." That would open ALPA national up to a lawsuit the RJDC and Nicole Brown Simpson's family can only have wet dreams about.

The point is that once scope is given up, it can never be taken back. If you concede pay rates or duty rigs in a contract, you can win those provisions back. However, once you give a seat capacity away to another ALPA carrier (ie. Mesaba), that aircraft and that payscale is lost forever. You will never be able to bargain it back.

I don't work here. I only hope to.....

You are correct in your understanding of ALPA's duties to its members. However, scope can be taken back and here is how you do it:

Inclusive Scope

If the mainline wants this flying back, they are going to have to take the pilots with the airplanes. By negotiating a contract which includes those pilots and airplanes on the major brand's seniority list the flying is effectively scoped back in. Once the seat locks and fences that are mutually agreed on expire the RJ's are on the list like any other equipment.

Research Pan Am/Ransome, it worked.

 

[Quack]

If mainline is truely worried about losing the 190 to compass, then why don't they bring those pilots along right now, give em seat locks or something, and take the flying back. it's easy to see what nwa mgmt is doing with the -9. it's the perverbial trend. look at what delta, continental, united, american, and usair(till the 190's) have all done. scrapped their 100-120 seat airplanes. if nwa were to do this they'd immediately put hundreds back on the street, and after what everyone there has been through, i'd hate to see that malay. there's maybe 120 guys at compass right now? seems like a small price to pay to preserve scope and future jobs for the D-9 replacement (i.e. the 190)...just my $.02

 

[DashTrash400]

I don't think you'd find any objection from the Compass pilots, given many want to end up at NWA anyways. The EMB175/190 really should be at mainline, IMHO.

 

[AWACoff]

Continental has not scrapped their 100-120 seat jets. Also, no express/connection/etc. aircraft of larger than 50 seats (small jets) or larger than 79 seats (small turboprop) are allowed. We still have our 737-500s (112 seats) and the 300s and 700s are 124 seats.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Thats strange......I'm looking at pages 3-12 thru 3-16 and there is a column labled "EMB195." So yes xjhawk, there is an emb specific rate.

There is an EMB-195 specific rate.

I responded to this: where do you get the pay rates......what pay rates include a EMB AC in the NWA system?

With this:

2. In Section 3. Listed by seat size...not type.

As you can see from Section 3, there are two pay rates, listed as "77-100" and "101-110". There is also a rate for the EMB-195. I got caught up in the response to the previous poster who mentioned the EMB-170(5). I should have been more specific.

My bad.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Standing a little to close to reactor are we?

No. I do get a bit of toxic radiation from pilots who think being safety-wired to the pi$$ed-off position is cool.

That kind of idiocy leads to fratricide, which benefits management.

Rave on!

Everyone took a 40% cut. If the E195 becomes the DC9 replacement, it's pay rate will be nearly 60% less than the previous DC9 rate.

Point?

Where will it fit within the pay structure at other carriers flying the EMB-195?

No other aircraft on the property is currently in danger of being immediately replaced by an even lower paying category variant. That only effects ~2000 of our seniority list.

Some are a little more equal than others in the new TA.

Really? We just parked the last Classic B747-200. It's being replaced by the A330...which pays less.

Found a cool picture of McClain recently:

Feel better?

Now that we've got the wagons in a circle...stop shooting INSIDE the circle.

 

[Fly4hire]

Point?

The pay cuts were not even across the board if the E195 becomes the DC9 replacement.

Where will it fit within the pay structure at other carriers flying the EMB-195?

So we should take another JB induced pay cut because they fly it for beans?

Really? We just parked the last Classic B747-200. It's being replaced by the A330...which pays less.

Danger Will Robinson - you heard it here first - we are parking the freighters?!

Feel better?

Nope.

Now that we've got the wagons in a circle...stop shooting INSIDE the circle

And those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Shoot outside the circle - yes, common enemy - yes, also never forget the mistakes that were made.

When I hear the self rationalizing at this point that we made all the right moves the BS meter antenna go on high alert.....

 

[jetflier]

No. I do get a bit of toxic radiation from pilots who think being safety-wired to the pi$$ed-off position is cool.

That kind of idiocy leads to fratricide, which benefits management.

Rave on!

No, i think you've got that wrong, "safety-wired to the pi$$ed-off position", is nothing more than pilots being lied to during contract negotiations to force a yes vote on the contract to protect senior pilots $11,000/month pensions ,...only to find out that their jobs (scope) were negotiated away to the Compasses, Pinnacle and Mesaba's.

...by the way, how's the A320 treating you lately ?



Point?

POINT !

Where will it fit within the pay structure at other carriers flying the EMB-195?

Mark, who gives a s##t what other airlines pay their E195 pilots, the replacement aircraft for the DC9 has yet to be named by NWA,....point ?

( by the way, hasn't the "replacement aircraft" at NWA always payed a rate of pay close to the aircraft that it replaces, ex, DC10 replaced by A330.) That is of course unless you are no longer concerned with the pay rate on the DC9...



Really? We just parked the last Classic B747-200. It's being replaced by the A330...which pays less.

Mark, you seem to want everyone to know that you're INSIDE the circle,...then you should know that the 330 was a "replacement "for the DC10, not the 747 200 pax ! Oh really!!!


Feel better?

YUP !!

Now that we've got the wagons in a circle...stop shooting INSIDE the circle.

Why ?....That seems to be where the crooks are !

GEESH !!! Whoa....!

 

[starvingredtail]

Quote:

Now that we've got the wagons in a circle...stop shooting INSIDE the circle

I remember that we used to do something else in a circle at NWA. All I remember is that I was kind of embarrased, but that it felt good at the end.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I remember that we used to do something else in a circle at NWA. All I remember is that I was kind of embarrased, but that it felt good at the end.

Hey! I lettered in that in high school!

 

[Occam's Razor]

The pay cuts were not even across the board if the E195 becomes the DC9 replacement.

No argument from me. In Sound Bite Nation that is a sad truth. When we remember what our goals were at the time (to put that type a/c at the mainline, and get rates for it higher than other operators), it was acceptable. Not "good", "nice", "OK"....acceptable.

We could spend the next few years documenting every single thing about the contract that we dislike. Or we could focus on fixinng them. We've done it before...successfully.

Pi$$ed is a nice place to visit....but I wouldn't want to live there.

So we should take another JB induced pay cut because they fly it for beans?

No. But I also don't think we should make it our #1 priority.

We're in a situation right now where our management doesn't seem able to operate the airline the way they envisioned under our contract, back when it was put in place. We need to prioritize our objectives, and work at getting them while those guys struggle.

So far, we've done a pretty good job of fixing some of the more irritating crap (Zero Open Time, DH credit, Block or Better, IP pay, Premium pay trigger), but I don't see anybody hoisting a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner.

My personal priorities are fixing the Sick Leave limitations and getting the DC jacked up to a minimum of 15% across-the-board....for starters.

(Don't get me started on the UNACCEPTABLE delay in implementing the Targeted DC! Since that didn't happen a frickin' YEAR ago, as it should have, I don't list it at the top)

Danger Will Robinson - you heard it here first - we are parking the freighters?!

Yeah. We're parking all the B787's too....eventually. The freighters have a service life just like every other commercial aircraft. The DC-9's are being parked right now when they hit 104,000 cycles (or when they hit an Airbus!). The parking "schedule" is exactly the same right now as it was when it was posted on the ALPA bulletin board in '99.

Our issue is the replacement for both. I don't think there's any question management will replace the freighters, since too many of the China routes and NRT "A" slots are "freighter specific". It'd be nice to know what/when, but I don't want to make it OUR issue. Our issue should be the contract. Our management is run by predictable money-grabbers, and the freight operation is money. Getting new freighters to grab more money is THEIR issue.

But I think you missed my point. Your contention was that only the the most unior pilots at NWA were impacted by fleet decisions. You typed: "No other aircraft on the property is currently in danger of being immediately replaced by an even lower paying category variant. That only effects ~2000 of our seniority list."

I pointed out the B747-200 is/was being replaced by the lower-paying A330. Not a big deal...sorta like me posting that we didn't have a EMB-specific pay rate in our contract...and only focusing on the -175 and -190. An oversight. It happens. Still BFF?

And those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Shoot outside the circle - yes, common enemy - yes, also never forget the mistakes that were made.

I don't. Like you, I live in the mistakes. But I don't blame my fellow pilots. I blame the reps on the MEC that could've killed the TA in NY...but left it up to a fractured pilot group to decide.

I think we need each other to get the items I listed above, when the oppotunity arises....and it will. If you study that "past" we're "doomed to repeat" then you learn we've gotten our biggest enhancements mid-contract. eg: The only reason the pay cut was 40% was due to the largest pay raise in our history that we got mid-term in 2003-04, while others were taking cuts and/or going bankrupt. I do want to repeat that past!

When I hear the self rationalizing at this point that we made all the right moves the BS meter antenna go on high alert.....

Good call. We made some bad moves. We always do. We made a few good moves too, though. Preventing any changes to Section 24 in the new contract was genius, as we know now. Without them, we wouldn't have gotten the improvements that we have, so far. That conclusion doesn't require rationalization. It's there for all to see, in Technicolor. Of course, if we're busy being pi$$ed at each other, the only color we "see" is crimson...as in anger.

Not good, that.