Skywest, Sapa and Union Busting Law Firm...

[120% Torque]

First I want the new guys at skywest to know and understand that skywest hired Ford/Harrison, a labor law firm to represent them. Also, I want the new guys to understand that alot of the cleverly written letters such as that from "chip childs" are actually written by this firm. Skywest makes no bones about the fact they have these guys on the payroll. So in actual fact it is Legal "marketeers" who wrote the last letter suggesting if you bring in sapa, Skywest's growth will be hurt. You see they research how you think and they try to go right for the area you will respond to most. The fact is Skywest will be equally succesfull with or without Alpa. PLEASE don't buy into the rhetoric. Just like you dont run out and buy Tide after seeing a Tide commercial on TV, try to use your mind and formulate what is really best for you going forward.

PS- Does anybody find it troubling that the now Sapa president just posted information from this firms website, FordHarrison, on the Sapa forums even if its just info on mergers and labor laws? What is he doing over on that site to start with?

http://www.fordharrison.com/about.aspx?Show=673

"Ford & Harrison is committed to providing assistance to employers to allow their management teams to successfully deal with increased litigation, government agency investigations, collective bargaining, or union organizing drives by helping to provide the necessary knowledge and insight to deal with these issues."

 

[jeroom]

First I want the new guys at skywest to know and understand that skywest hired Ford/Harrison, a labor law firm to represent them. Also, I want the new guys to understand that alot of the cleverly written letters such as that from "chip childs" are actually written by this firm. Skywest makes no bones about the fact they have these guys on the payrole. So in actually fact it is Legal "marketeers" who wrote the last letter suggesting if you bring in sapa Skywests growth will be hurt. You see they research how you think and they try to go right for the area you will respond to most. The fact is Skywest will be equally succesfull with or without Alpa. PLEASE don't buy into the rhetoric. Just like you dont run out and buy Tide after seeing a Tide commercial on TV, try to use your mind and formulate what is really best for you going forward.

PS- Does anybody find it troubling that the now Sapa president just posted information from this firms website, FordHarrison, on the Sapa forums even if its just info on mergers and labor laws? What is he doing over on that site to start with?

http://www.fordharrison.com/about.aspx?Show=673

"Ford & Harrison is committed to providing assistance to employers to allow their management teams to successfully deal with increased litigation, government agency investigations, collective bargaining, or union organizing drives by helping to provide the necessary knowledge and insight to deal with these issues."

I hope they all read this...

 

[DashTrash400]

Ford & Harrison is well known over at Horizon Air, the company used them in their attempts at keeping the union off the property and has since used them in attempts to bust the union. Much of the communication that's purportedly from management has been shown to have actually originated with Ford & Harrison. You're 100% spot on about them researching the area the employees will respond to most and then attacking on that front. They've obviously found that Skywest pilots are most concerned about slowing growth causing increased upgrade time and are using that knowledge to manipulate them. We'll see if it works.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Ford & Harrison is well known over at Horizon Air, the company used them in their attempts at keeping the union off the property and has since used them in attempts to bust the union. Much of the communication that's purportedly from management has been shown to have actually originated with Ford & Harrison. You're 100% spot on about them researching the area the employees will respond to most and then attacking on that front. They've obviously found that Skywest pilots are most concerned about slowing growth causing increased upgrade time and are using that knowledge to manipulate them. We'll see if it works.

Our caring management team uses them every time we have a union drive...so far the millions JA has given F & H (instead of the pilots), has succesfully beaten back every union drive on the property!

 

[Bako Cap]

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner" for bringing BS's post onto FI. Did you not read his post? He was very up front that after a Google search he had found information about the issue being discussed on the F&H website. All of you anti-SAPA guys need to back off on this one. BS is a VERY pro-pilot who I would back 100% if he would want to run for MEC chairman when ALPA comes onto property. He is not one of the management lackeys that we are used to in SAPA. There are many issues that are useful in getting ALPA on property. Slamming BS is not one of them.

 

[120% Torque]

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner" for bringing BS's post onto FI. Did you not read his post? He was very up front that after a Google search he had found information about the issue being discussed on the F&H website. All of you anti-SAPA guys need to back off on this one. BS is a VERY pro-pilot who I would back 100% if he would want to run for MEC chairman when ALPA comes onto property. He is not one of the management lackeys that we are used to in SAPA. There are many issues that are useful in getting ALPA on property. Slamming BS is not one of them.

B.S. as you will find out is just as much of a company man as the other Presidents who went before him. He is just smarter in how he presents himself, and not so abrasive nor defensive in defending management. I worked with him on a couple issues and at the end of the day the outcome was just as bad as the other guys. He over the years has migrated into sapa and such for his quality of life and days off, there is no two ways about it. His true attitude will come out in the coming months if Alpa is not voted in. You heard it here first.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

B.S. as you will find out is just as much of a company man as the other Presidents who went before him. He is just smarter in how he presents himself, and not so abrasive nor defensive in defending management. I worked with him on a couple issues and at the end of the day the outcome was just as bad as the other guys. He over the years has migrated into sapa and such for his quality of life and days off, there is no two ways about it. His true attitude will come out in the coming months if Alpa is not voted in. You heard it here first.

You sir, are well informed, and correct!

 

[Super Monkey]

I don't know if I have any room to talk here, buuuut...

I was at SkyWest and was a SAPA rep. Let me say this to all SkyWest pilots that are listening...SAPA does not work in favor of the pilots!

The pilots of SkyWest need to be formally represented and recognized. Not to "Screw" mngt, but to not have your delicate and hard earned career flushed. You need to have someone behind you when it goes down. I know all too often that I could not help other fellow pilots out as a rep. I couldn't go down to HQ and throw a bandaid on the situation; I couldn't even clean the wound! I tried to involve the EB on numerous occcations, only to have them say, "well we can't do much for them." Kinda "Oh well" attitude I guess. I can honestly say that I did nothing but beat my head up against the wall. I found more confrontation from within SAPA than with mngnt. Mngnt saw this and just watched us beat ourselves up and end up with no direction whatso ever. They saw the disorganization of the organization and did not take us seriously.

I'm at an ALPA carrier now...a good and well respected one too. ALPA is not a 4 letter bad word here. The company respects our union and professionally negotiates with them. The company advises us to seek a union rep when in need. It's not all about negotiation either; it's about someone having your back when you're losing your medical, your retirement, your benefits, or just your mind.

For the sake of every pilot at SkyWest, please get educated and vote.

 

[dumbidea]

well, im not sure about all of this other business......but I LOVE cleaning female private parts...

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner" for bringing BS's post onto FI. Did you not read his post? He was very up front that after a Google search he had found information about the issue being discussed on the F&H website. All of you anti-SAPA guys need to back off on this one. BS is a VERY pro-pilot who I would back 100% if he would want to run for MEC chairman when ALPA comes onto property. He is not one of the management lackeys that we are used to in SAPA. There are many issues that are useful in getting ALPA on property. Slamming BS is not one of them.

 

[WalterSobchak]

First I want the new guys at skywest to know and understand that skywest hired Ford/Harrison...

They hired Han Solo? Dirty smuggler...

 

[John Pennekamp]

We have lots of experience with Ford & Harrison here at ASA. They have been the company's law firm for years, and they are 90% of the reason our negotiations have drug out. Their lawyer, Bill Hiers used to sit and stare out the window at negotiations, argue that every "will" must become a "shall" and other highly productive activities. They also like to drag out the grievance process by refusing to meet and strike for arbitrators, rescheduling, and legal maneuvering. "Billable" Bill (as he's known) literally wrote a book on union busting that F&H uses like a company bible. Bill left the company for a while, but I've heard he's now back.

We have seen many, many memos written by F&H and passed off as being written by company managers. Funny how they all have the same writing style. They also picked through our FOM with a fine tooth comb to reduce the company's liability, and increase the potential for enforceability by shifting the burden to the pilots and increasing the potential for discipline. ASA has also outsourced our FMLA leave "program" to F&H so that they can find loopholes to deny the leave.

F&H is committed to helping its clients avoid unionization and to bust existing unions. Once they get involved, you know your company is scared, because they're bringing out the big guns. This is no ordinary law firm, they have a national reputation as being THE law firm if you have a union you can't deal with.

 

[Texx]

Here at ASA we are use to these people. This one especially...http://www.fordharrison.com/showbio.aspx?Show=68

He has such a happy face doesn't he.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

F&H is the default anti pilot union. They specialize in airline industry actitvities..... If there is any type of pilot representation, including organizing drives you can bet there is a F&H LAWYER on site.

Instead of viewing pilots as an asset, companies would rather treat you as a cost to be controlled. Your management team would rather give millions to Ford and Harrison then give you a pay raise.

Welcome to America. No one gives a damm about how much time, money and energy you gave to become an airline pilot. Your management team doesn't repsect you or like you because you operate a 20MM jet and have peoples lives in your hands.

The only people that care about Air Line Pilots are Air Line Pilots. The sooner we get together... work together the better off we will be....


The Book.. Confessions of a Union Buster is a great read.. it will show you who is capable of what in this country. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=union+buster

 

[Texx]

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner" for bringing BS's post onto FI. Did you not read his post? He was very up front that after a Google search he had found information about the issue being discussed on the F&H website. All of you anti-SAPA guys need to back off on this one. BS is a VERY pro-pilot who I would back 100% if he would want to run for MEC chairman when ALPA comes onto property. He is not one of the management lackeys that we are used to in SAPA. There are many issues that are useful in getting ALPA on property. Slamming BS is not one of them.

If this guys is so "pro APLA" is he working on OR with the OC to bring ALPA on the property?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here at ASA we are use to these people. This one especially...http://www.fordharrison.com/showbio.aspx?Show=68

He has such a happy face doesn't he.

Arrrrrgh! Billiable Bill! RUN!!!!!! :uzi:

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner"

Didn't know they had people for that.

 

[120% Torque]

120%,
You are a "female private parts cleaner" for bringing BS's post onto FI. Did you not read his post? He was very up front that after a Google search he had found information about the issue being discussed on the F&H website. All of you anti-SAPA guys need to back off on this one. BS is a VERY pro-pilot who I would back 100% if he would want to run for MEC chairman when ALPA comes onto property. He is not one of the management lackeys that we are used to in SAPA. There are many issues that are useful in getting ALPA on property. Slamming BS is not one of them.

To further shore up my case I'll share a quote written today by none other than Jim Black, one of the worst of the Sapa reps when it comes to being in bed with management:

"Just wanted to chime in and tell you all, Bill is a good man. I am glad to have him (B.S.) part of the EB. He is a hard worker and puts this pilot group first. It will be nice to get SAPA working again and getting the right things done for this pilot group over the remainder of hopefully future terms with Bill as President."

Do you remember the tone of Jim Black regarding M.N. who was the first Sapa president in a long time to tell it like it was and expose the corruption inside. The fact JB is sitting here espousing the virtues of Bill should send red flags up immediately. These guys are buds. Bill is less abbrassive but in the end his loyalties are with Brad and the rest of the club. Have been for a long time.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

But another reason why I will be voting YES. Wake up people!

 

[SSDD]

F&H. Because you know, we woundln't want a THIRD party coming between us and our pilots

 

[Jmoney]

Where's Skynation?

I'll bet Skynation would give old Bill a big wet smootch. That guy is such a "screw everyone but me" type he could probably even get a job with this bunch!

-We need that toolbox's brilliant insights!

 

[PCL_128]

The Book.. Confessions of a Union Buster is a great read.. it will show you who is capable of what in this country. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=union+buster

This should be required reading of every pilot in this business. The tactics that are described in this book are some of the exact things that Ford & Harrison still do to this day. The "labor relations" business is as dirty as they come.

 

[Goose Egg]

PLEASE don't buy into the rhetoric. Just like you dont run out and buy Tide after seeing a Tide commercial on TV, try to use your mind and formulate what is really best for you going forward.

Don't worry, I'm using my brain. And as far as I've been able to detect, both sides have valid points... and both sides have some not-so-valid points. I'm not pro-union, and I'm not pro-company either. I'm pro-career (mine), and so far, I'm not convinced that either side has my best interests at heart. SKW to me is a good place to get in, get my time, and get the freak out. The only thing that appears to be threatening that plan right now is ALPA. I'm not saying that my mind is made up either way, but it does make one think.

-Goose

 

[Tomct]

Don't worry, I'm using my brain. And as far as I've been able to detect, both sides have valid points... and both sides have some not-so-valid points. I'm not pro-union, and I'm not pro-company either. I'm pro-career (mine), and so far, I'm not convinced that either side has my best interests at heart. SKW to me is a good place to get in, get my time, and get the freak out. The only thing that appears to be threatening that plan right now is ALPA. I'm not saying that my mind is made up either way, but it does make one think.

-Goose

Yeah....get my time and move on? You better be prepared for the "worst case scenario!" There were a lot of us that were thinking along those same lines when 9/11 happened! Here's a question for you....where do you want to go? You can BET that where ever it is, THEY HAVE A UNION!! If it is good for you there....it should be good for you now! Think long and hard...Jerry is hoping that all of you will miss the fact that he has been lying to all of us. Lots of red flags, but if it does not concern you...Good Luck with THAT!

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Don't worry, I'm using my brain. And as far as I've been able to detect, both sides have valid points... and both sides have some not-so-valid points. I'm not pro-union, and I'm not pro-company either. I'm pro-career (mine), and so far, I'm not convinced that either side has my best interests at heart. SKW to me is a good place to get in, get my time, and get the freak out. The only thing that appears to be threatening that plan right now is ALPA. I'm not saying that my mind is made up either way, but it does make one think.

-Goose

Thats part of the selfish problem I see with to many of our new F.O's...get my time and get out. Listen I have been at SkyWest for a long time, I plan on staying for a career and with the experience i have seen over the last several years I have decided we need ALPA. Just because you want to get your time and get out dont jeopardize my future for your quick upgrade so that you can eventually go work at an ALPA carrier and enjoy those pay and work rules they fought for!

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Isn't it interesting that the company is seeking help from a 3rd party in their quest to keep us from doing the same. Is it just me or does anyone else think this is hypocritical? This is but another example of management telling us one thing and then doing the opposite. Ever listen to Jerry and Co. talk to the share holders? He paints a pretty rosy picture and then turns around and tells the pilot group that the sky is falling. You ready to bet your future here at Skywest on what these guys are telling you? WAKE UP!

 

[Goose Egg]

Thats part of the selfish problem I see with to many of our new F.O's...get my time and get out.

I don't think it's particularly selfish. It's just an opinion, and it won't keep me from working hard and doing a good job. I'm only saying that I don't plan to be at a regional my entire career. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Listen I have been at SkyWest for a long time, I plan on staying for a career and with the experience i have seen over the last several years I have decided we need ALPA.

Ok, you definitely know more about it than I do, and I actually welcome your input. The thing is, that no one has yet given me any reason why we need a union except "the grass may be greener at a union regional." And if we need a union, why does it have to be ALPA? The way it looks to me is that the same union representing both regionals and majors is a conflict of interest, and weakens ALPAs bargaining power. I'm not saying that SAPA is doing an adequate job (or that they aren't, for that matter), but I just wish there were more facts involved with the arguments that I've been hearing. It's just propaganda either way, and I don't find it particularly convincing.

Just because you want to get your time and get out dont jeopardize my future for your quick upgrade so that you can eventually go work at an ALPA carrier and enjoy those pay and work rules they fought for!

Well, if are you say you are, your future really shouldn't be in jeopardy. I mean, I could say, using the same logic "don't jeopardize my quick upgrade because you want slightly better work rules and slightly higher pay." It works both ways. But then again, I guess that's why my vote counts just as much as yours.

I probably shouldn't worry about it though. If the union comes on, it will be a couple years before the contract gets hammered out, and by then I will hopefully be moving on or at least getting closer to it.

Oh well... politics, religion, and unions...

-Goose

 

[Gobi Gred]

Skywest Pylot, I don't think what the company is doing is necessarily hypocritical, it's just smart business. They are looking out for number 1. Always have, always will. As a pilot group it's our job (not managements) to look out for ourselves and our careers. Unfortunately historically SkyWest pilots have been the absolute worst at doing just that. Will enough our pilots "wake up" in the next month? Based on what I've seen in the past, I'm betting no. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[MYFpilot]

Don't worry, I'm using my brain. And as far as I've been able to detect, both sides have valid points... and both sides have some not-so-valid points. I'm not pro-union, and I'm not pro-company either. I'm pro-career (mine), and so far, I'm not convinced that either side has my best interests at heart. SKW to me is a good place to get in, get my time, and get the freak out. The only thing that appears to be threatening that plan right now is ALPA. I'm not saying that my mind is made up either way, but it does make one think.

-Goose

Bringing in ALPA will have no effect on upgrade times. Upgrade opportunity is a function of growth and attrition. Growth at SkyWest has stopped for the near future. Attrition is running at over 30 pilots (mostly captains) a month, and will not stop or slow anytime soon.

Goose, You are an FO now correct? If and when you upgrade to Captain would you want ALPA or SAPA representing you?

At your Alaska, Delta, Continental, United, Fedex, Etc. Interview someday there is a good chance you'll get asked this by an Interview Captain... "I see you were at SkyWest during the ALPA drive. Did you participate and were you an ALPA supporter then?"

I'm sure they will be quite happy with, "You know I'm not pro-union, and I'm not pro-company either. I'm pro-career (mine), and so far, I'm not convinced that either side had my best interests at heart. SKW to me was a good place to get in, get my time, and get the freak out. The only thing that appears to be threatening that plan back then was ALPA."

You are an Airline Pilot. I encourage you to participate and take an active interest in your chosen career!

 

[PCL_128]

At your Alaska, Delta, Continental, United, Fedex, Etc. Interview someday there is a good chance you'll get asked this by an Interview Captain... "I see you were at SkyWest during the ALPA drive. Did you participate and were you an ALPA supporter then?"

Alright, I'm all for trying to convince these guys to vote for ALPA, but let's stick to the facts. It would be illegal for an interviewer to ask the above question, or anything similar to it. No company is stupid enough to have interviewers ask these sorts of questions.

There are a million reasons that you should vote for ALPA representation, but fear of being asked about it during an interview isn't one of them.

 

[USCtrojan]

I don't think it's particularly selfish. It's just an opinion, and it won't keep me from working hard and doing a good job. I'm only saying that I don't plan to be at a regional my entire career. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.



Ok, you definitely know more about it than I do, and I actually welcome your input. The thing is, that no one has yet given me any reason why we need a union except "the grass may be greener at a union regional." And if we need a union, why does it have to be ALPA? The way it looks to me is that the same union representing both regionals and majors is a conflict of interest, and weakens ALPAs bargaining power. I'm not saying that SAPA is doing an adequate job (or that they aren't, for that matter), but I just wish there were more facts involved with the arguments that I've been hearing. It's just propaganda either way, and I don't find it particularly convincing.



Well, if are you say you are, your future really shouldn't be in jeopardy. I mean, I could say, using the same logic "don't jeopardize my quick upgrade because you want slightly better work rules and slightly higher pay." It works both ways. But then again, I guess that's why my vote counts just as much as yours.

I probably shouldn't worry about it though. If the union comes on, it will be a couple years before the contract gets hammered out, and by then I will hopefully be moving on or at least getting closer to it.

Oh well... politics, religion, and unions...

-Goose

Goose,

Good luck on moving on. I hope you get that dream job of whatever it is you're looking for. I would say first off, that most of us "don't plan on staying at a Regional." We start out on a career path hoping for that illustrious "heavy int'l flying" (or insert dreamjob here), but things don't always work out the way we want it to. To put it short, Life Happens. Families grow, economics change, and numerous other variables happen that I will just categorize as "life." I love my job, I don't like my leadership team (I'm an ASA pilot.) I digress, however, my point is I want to make it better for those who enter this industry behind me. Your upgrade or future will not depend on a Union Drive. Jerry A. has thrown the book at ASA on Union Busting. He's closed 2 bases, transferred airplanes, reduced our flight benefits and has publicly told ASA pilots that "there would be NO DEAL prior to the SkyW ALPA vote." Additionally, he's opened an ATL base for SkyWest......However, the pendulum is swingin'. We now have a TA mostly due to a Perfect Storm scenario regarding our Negotiations that I won't go into. I don't want you or any other SkyWest pilot to go through what WE have for the last 2 years. I want to put an end to the whipsaw that's been quite obvious after the buyout. The only way to improve things at SkyWest and ASA is to be ONE. ONE group, 4500 pilots strong. Join the fight. Because that's what it is. Your upgrade won't simply depend on a Union Drive. To believe that is exactly what Mgmt. is selling. They haven't been truthful to the ASA pilots since the buyout. Believe what you want to believe. I wish you and the rest of the SkyWest pilots (except SkyNation and HelloNewman) the best. Good luck.

Trojan