SWA to buy AirTran

[HalinTexas]

ATA was on the verge of being bought by America West. Mysteriously, financing dried up and SWA stepped in. Hmmmmm.

So, AWA can't get the financing for an ATA purchase, but within a year or two can get it to buy US. Something is wrong here.

And before that, FL only offered $90M for ATA assets (no planes), but offered $300M+ for Midwest to include MD-80's. Hmmmmm.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

there is nothing unregulated about this industry. it all just happens behind closed doors and in the shadows.

airlines do not follow the rules other businesses follow.

 

[Whataburger]

Also, a lot of the day-to-day operational aspects of flying the line at SWA are much different than here. You'll frequently see an SWA FO standing out on the ramp waiting intently for his plane to pull into the gate so he can hurry and do a preflight as soon as it pulls in so they can turn the plane in 15 minutes. It just seems that those guys are always in a rush. I know, they all say that you get used to it, but it's just not for me. I prefer a more calm and relaxed schedule. I'd much rather have my 40-minute turns and 2-3 legs a day.

The FO you see standing intently on the ramp is orginating a PM trip. He has to show 30min before push time at the gate. After fetching a few strollers, he'll stroll around the plane, greet the outbound crew, and preflight the cockpit in which he'll have about 15 minutes to spare to greet incomming pax or sip on starbucks. During the common 25-30 min turns, 15-20 min will be spent doing nothing since the original preflight is the only one done by a flight crew. The only time you'll see an FO in a hurry is if he/she is new or something has gotten terribly behind. Our system is set up so that by the time our last pax is off, the cockpit preflight is done. Therefore a few minutes of relaxation is in store while the 137 incomming folks lolly-gag on. True, this isnt for everyone, but having block time that is rarely more than a couple hours less than duty is priceless.

 

[Phaedrus]

I like duty that is days over block time. Aaaahh, diversity.

 

[Whataburger]

One plus for Airtran is quicker seniority progression. I was hired in April of 2004 and according to the latest seniority list published on the NPA website, I just reached 50%. We have line holding Captains at Airtran hired in 2003.

Just curious if anyone had the hire date of the 50% seniority pilots at Southwest and the hire date/base of the junior most line holding Captain.

Also with Airtran continuing to grow (30% ASM growth for the 3rd Qtr 2007) and Southwest slowing growth to 6-8%, these numbers will probably stay favorable to quicker progression at Airtran (not to mention that the age 65 rule has more impact on Southwest seniority slowing since they have more old guys close to retirement).

I think that comparing the seniority (AirTran much more junior overall) and growth at these two airlines is like comparing apples and hand grenades. However, here are some numbers you were looking for.

Total pilots = 5615
50% of total = Sept. 28, 2000 hire date.
Jr Captain = #3072
Upgrade time for last 24 mos =
6yr. 4mos.
Jr Line holding CA = too much work for me to find out.

 

[maxblast72]

Thanks for the good numbers Whataburger.

It looks like Captain goes about 65% of the way down the seniority list. Probably because SW FO pay is so much better and partly because some bases go more junior than others.

Do you guys have guesses for upgrade times for late 2007 hires with a 6% growth rate and an age 65 rule in effect?

Been having lots of good discussions with our reserve FO's (that I normally fly with) on the pro's and con's of leaving for SW, CO, FDX, UPS, etc.

 

[Whataburger]

Thanks for the good numbers Whataburger.


Do you guys have guesses for upgrade times for late 2007 hires with a 6% growth rate and an age 65 rule in effect?

It's my understanding that the 6 1/2 yr upgrade will remain until the age 65 passes. Union projections have the upgrade delayed up to 2 more years when it passes provided everything stays the course in the next 7 yrs. For example, my upgrade based on my hire date, union projections, deliveries, and growth will be as long as 8 1/2 years when/if this 65 thingy goes thru. Is a fillibuster in order?

 

[Quimby]

Tecate=mmmm:beer:

 

[Whataburger]

Tecate=mmmm:beer:

How was the Shiner?imp: :uzi: :beer:

 

[Quimby]

dern tasty...imp:

be better at the Bean after golf.

 

[Daddy]

I agree with a lot of what whataburger said...you are seldom rushed as a SWA FO unless you are just slow....there just isnt that much to do. I always have plenty of time to get food, take a dump, etc...the day is just compacted more which means more flying in less time and a longer overnight. Trips can yield up to 9 trips-for-pay per day at straight time and I average about 7.5-8 per day. We have some guys making 170+ trips for pay per month on a regular basis...I normally work 13 days and get around 100 trips per month. I do not agree with the CA upgrade times...I think today's newhire could see around 10 years in the right seat if age 65 happens soon and maybe 8+ if it doesn't or happens a few years later. One difference for us on age 60 is that almost everyone will probably stay til 65 since there is no pension (will draw from 401K vice let it grow longer) and senior guys get almost 3 months a year off on vacation. If you ever get tired of flying in this job, you can always fly min rigged trips that credit 6.5 per day and block less than 5 hrs per day and have 18+ hour overnights...it doesn't even feel like work then. I do that occasionally but usually want the density for less days worked. Hope that helped.

PS If we buy someone then forget all the upgrade estimates and spin the wheel here

 

[puddlejumper101]

ok...i have flown on airtran many times...always been great to me. but honestly how on Earth is their product that much different? The gate agents in ATL are AWEFUL, and the people that fly Airtran are not any different than what i see at SWA every day I go to work. I took airtran to work for 6 months twice a week. The pilots were always very good to me but to say Aitran has a better product? and that their flying is different? I could understand a DAL guy saying that (geez the general says that everyday), but an Airtran guy???? I think you guys looking from the outside in at SWA have no clue what goes on here. I personally hope this merger never happens for that same reason. I luv that fact that there is no union vs. management bickering...and as far as schedules you guys don't have a clue the flexibility we have here...the only way to know is to work here. Airtran has done very well...but I personally don't think their product is any different. A good way to judge is to get 10 airtran pilots and ask them how they feel about their company...then get 10 SWA pilots and ask them how they feel about their company. Not everyone that works here loves SWA...but I can tell you EVERYONE here respects this place if nothing else. and then there was $$$...that's not even close. Senior captains here making 350 to 400 grand a year (not making this up). try making that at Airtran.

 

[puddlejumper101]

by the way upgrading to captain is great and all but as an FO on my 6th year I wil make more than most captains at most airlines...and to base the future on upgrade time is crazy. Unless anyone here can predict the future then you never know. One bad day at both airlines and we might never upgrade. You think all the guys that went to AA planned on a 16 year upgrade????? enjoy the journey not the destination...I am glad many guys don't get it...less competition when I got this job.

 

[PCL_128]

ok...i have flown on airtran many times...always been great to me. but honestly how on Earth is their product that much different?

Assigned seating, business class section, and free in-flight entertainment (XM Radio). For many people, these things matter.

 

[humuakalaka]

The AirTran product, for the passenger, is arguably better. They have assigned seats, XM radio, and business class. Their flight attendants are friendly enough.

There may be some captains at SWA making $350-400K per year, but how much are they working and how much JA are they flying? Even for a senior captain, flying more than half of a 105 TFP line at JA rates, I'm not coming up with anywhere very close to $350-400K pery year. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong.

 

[jhill]

ok...i have flown on airtran many times...always been great to me. but honestly how on Earth is their product that much different? The gate agents in ATL are AWEFUL, and the people that fly Airtran are not any different than what i see at SWA every day I go to work. I took airtran to work for 6 months twice a week. The pilots were always very good to me but to say Aitran has a better product? and that their flying is different? I could understand a DAL guy saying that (geez the general says that everyday), but an Airtran guy???? I think you guys looking from the outside in at SWA have no clue what goes on here. I personally hope this merger never happens for that same reason. I luv that fact that there is no union vs. management bickering...and as far as schedules you guys don't have a clue the flexibility we have here...the only way to know is to work here. Airtran has done very well...but I personally don't think their product is any different. A good way to judge is to get 10 airtran pilots and ask them how they feel about their company...then get 10 SWA pilots and ask them how they feel about their company. Not everyone that works here loves SWA...but I can tell you EVERYONE here respects this place if nothing else. and then there was $$$...that's not even close. Senior captains here making 350 to 400 grand a year (not making this up). try making that at Airtran.

350 to 400K huh? Maybe a few freaks that have no life and about 3 flight attendant ex-wives. Oh and they get to keep about 40K after taxes, child support and alimony.