Those Crazy Sweedish Dash Drivers! (gear collapse)

[lineflyer1]

Your posts do not apply to the topic. Stick to the situation at hand. How often do props not feather when commanded? Give me a break. All four of the turboprops I have flown feather in one second or less, consistantly, when commanded. Three of those failed to feather, the EMB-120 does not. The 120 didn't fail me, neither did my FO.

Actually my posts have everything to do with the topic at hand. Every emergency you have, you need to consider the hypotheticals and the possible out comes of your actions.

Now if you had stated that in the traffic pattern, they might have shutdown the right engine and feathered it before landing I might agree that would be a prudent action. But to shutdown and feather both engines in the flare I just cannot agree with.

So, please explain what your little mechanical issue was that you felt it neccassry to shut both engines down in the landing flare so we can all have a better understanding of your thought process.

After all, you said you are done with the QRH at some point and relying on technique's and skills that have been instilled in you over the years. I for one would like a better understanding of you thought process.

 

[The_Russian]

Hey Russian! You wanna know what it's like to land a DHC8 with no hydraulics? It's been done at Horizon before following a massive engine fire. You can check out the results here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X25438&key=1

The airplane was totalled when it hit the jetway and several people were hurt, one critically. It's by the grace of God and the skill of the FA in evacuating everyone that nobody was killed.

This is the same incident in which the hyd lines were burned through. Nice try, but it doesn't apply. Keep fishing.

Not to mention that a Q400 gets a big portion of its lift from propwash over the wing & flaps and landing without power results in a scary hard landing, and using pitch to get the oh-so-soft landing you demand would break the tail off the airplane!

So does every other multi with engines on the wings.

Now go back to telling us how to fly a B1900 you've bought a job on, and shut the he|| up on telling us how to fly Q400s/DHC8s when you know nothing about the airplane.

The original post was on technique not specific to one aircraft. And guess what? I didn't buy my job! HAHAHAHAHA!

 

[The_Russian]

Actually my posts have everything to do with the topic at hand. Every emergency you have, you need to consider the hypotheticals and the possible out comes of your actions.

Thats affirm. However, you cannot account for things that cannot be forseen. Your FO will do a precise job and the props will feather. If they don't (they will), you tried. You are going to crash anyway if the gear isn't down.

Now if you had stated that in the traffic pattern, they might have shutdown the right engine and feathered it before landing I might agree that would be a prudent action. But to shutdown and feather both engines in the flare I just cannot agree with.

The other prop may make ground contact and catch fire or fragment the prop. The engine will also create thrust working in the direction of the turning moment caused by any ground friction on the airframe. Not such a good idea because this is something that will happen.

So, please explain what your little mechanical issue was that you felt it neccassry to shut both engines down in the landing flare so we can all have a better understanding of your thought process.

Nosewheel unlocked emergency landing.

After all, you said you are done with the QRH at some point and relying on technique's and skills that have been instilled in you over the years. I for one would like a better understanding of you thought process.

Refer to the Airplane Flying Handbook and the AIM.

 

[lineflyer1]

Thats affirm. However, you cannot account for things that cannot be forseen. Your FO will do a precise job and the props will feather. If they don't (they will), you tried. You are going to crash anyway if the gear isn't down.

The other prop may make ground contact and catch fire or fragment the prop. The engine will also create thrust working in the direction of the turning moment caused by any ground friction on the airframe. Not such a good idea because this is something that will happen.

Nosewheel unlocked emergency landing.

Refer to the Airplane Flying Handbook and the AIM.

How is the left prop even going to come close to striking the ground. The left gear was down and locked?

With the left engine running you would have reverse thrust to help offset the drag created by the right wing contacting the ground.

In your scenerio I might agree with feathering both engines after touchdown while holding the nose wheel off the ground. But not with only one main gear not indicating down and locked.

 

[DashTrash400]

This is the same incident in which the hyd lines were burned through. Nice try, but it doesn't apply. Keep fishing.

*Sigh* You're not REALLY this ignorant, are you? Please tell me you're just egging us on. There was no hydraulic pressure to run anything that requires hydraulic pressure. The same applies when both engines are shut down on the Q400. Simple as that. The two ways to get hydraulic pressure with one engine shut down - the PTU and the Stby Hyd Pump - are both dependant on the other engine running. Trust me, I fly the airplane. I've run the scenario in the sim with left engine shut down and right AC gen fails. You lose all of your #1 hydraulics cuz there's no AC to run the standby hyd pump. No inverters on standby batt busses or crap. OK? Same end result as 819PH.

 

[The_Russian]

*Sigh* You're not REALLY this ignorant, are you? Please tell me you're just egging us on. There was no hydraulic pressure to run anything that requires hydraulic pressure. The same applies when both engines are shut down on the Q400. Simple as that. The two ways to get hydraulic pressure with one engine shut down - the PTU and the Stby Hyd Pump - are both dependant on the other engine running. Trust me, I fly the airplane. I've run the scenario in the sim with left engine shut down and right AC gen fails. You lose all of your #1 hydraulics cuz there's no AC to run the standby hyd pump. No inverters on standby batt busses or crap. OK? Same end result as 819PH.

Ok, so here's my point:

Unsafe gear in a prop, shut the engines down before you start skidding across the pavement. You won't need any hydraulics with the friction you'll be getting from the runway surface. If you flew a stabilized approach and landing, you won't need too much (if any) rudder at that point.

If the gear doesn't collapse, you slow to a nice stop on the runway assisted by aerodynamic braking and emergency brake at low speed. If you picked a suitable airport, you should have no problem rolling to a smooth stop in time.

 

[Wiggums]

If you flew a stabilized approach and landing, you won't need too much (if any) rudder at that point.

You don't need rudder or nose wheel steering when you rollout on a crosswind landing (as seen in the video)? Don't worry about that whole weathervaning thing I guess...

 

[lineflyer1]

Ok, so here's my point:

Unsafe gear in a prop, shut the engines down before you start skidding across the pavement. You won't need any hydraulics with the friction you'll be getting from the runway surface. If you flew a stabilized approach and landing, you won't need too much (if any) rudder at that point.

If the gear doesn't collapse, you slow to a nice stop on the runway assisted by aerodynamic braking and emergency brake at low speed. If you picked a suitable airport, you should have no problem rolling to a smooth stop in time.

Nose gear unsafe, I see your point if you are flying an aircraft where the props would contact the ground.

Gear up landing, I see that as well.

One main gear unsafe, sorry I disagree with shutting both engines down. One perhaps, both never.

I would rather have the systems available from one engine.

 

[The_Russian]

Nose gear unsafe, I see your point if you are flying an aircraft where the props would contact the ground.

Gear up landing, I see that as well.

One main gear unsafe, sorry I disagree with shutting both engines down. One perhaps, both never.

I would rather have the systems available from one engine.

No problem. Do what you need to do to make the landing as safe as you can. Thanks for the discussion. The class I am in is quite boring, and I needed the debate!

:nuts:

 

[lineflyer1]

I love it when people Monday Night Q/B and criticize.

If you were not in the plane you do not have all the facts to ascertain whether the judgment calls were good or bad.

Was it a concrete runway or asphalt. Watching the video I almost believe it was asphalt. It's like the right gear dug into the pavement and the airplane took an immediate right turn.

No amount of braking, reverse thrust or rudder could have stopped it from turning if the gear did indeed dig into asphalt.