ATP checkride during initial training

[ax_friend]

Hey all, I am planning on attending the Sept. 19th Chautauqua class and will have my ATP written complete before training. My question for you guys is; Will I be able to take an ATP checkride during the initial type rating training provided by the airline?

 

[LearLove]

You are not typed as a newhire. The SIC type is not a type in the traditional meaning, just paperwork to align us with the rest of the world.

I suggest you go to ATP's and knock it out in a few days if you want it or else you will do your ATP ride when your upgrade.

 

[BoilerUP]

Any airlines that allow you to get your ATP (provided you don't have one) during a regular PC?

 

[LittleDeuce]

Atp

Any airlines that allow you to get your ATP (provided you don't have one) during a regular PC?

A FAR Part 121.441 PC is different for a F/O vs a type rating. Most airlines only give an F/O PC.

You can review 121 appendix E & F for the criteria but basically the difference is a type rating requires a single engle MAP & a no flap landing.

If you are fortunate enough to get trainined under an AQP program, you could get a type rating.

At US Airways, all initials get a type rating.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I think Skyway gives newhires the option of doing just the FO ride or the full type ride during initial training.

 

[siucavflight]

Lynx is typing all of their new hires in the Q400, but dont confuse the type with getting your ATP, two different things.

 

[temcgrew]

Any airlines that allow you to get your ATP (provided you don't have one) during a regular PC?

If you upgrade then they will just check the box on the 8710 for the ATP. The two checkrides are the same so they will check the box and there you go....
Until then, the ATP written will not expire as long as you are employed by an air carrier.

 

[FL990]

dont confuse the type with getting your ATP, two different things.

This is somewhat true. However, if when you get the type rating, you meet the requirements for the ATP certificate (and also assuming you check the box and put all the required times on the 8710), you will be issued the ATP. The rides are identical.

Also, to correct an earlier statement, there is no requirement for a single engine missed approach on a type/ATP ride. It will be an element that is trained but is not a required maneuver on the checkride...although, if you screw up the single engine ILS, you will have an opportunity to demonstrate it! ;-)

 

[LittleDeuce]

ATP/Type ride

This is somewhat true. However, if when you get the type rating, you meet the requirements for the ATP certificate (and also assuming you check the box and put all the required times on the 8710), you will be issued the ATP. The rides are identical.

Also, to correct an earlier statement, there is no requirement for a single engine missed approach on a type/ATP ride. It will be an element that is trained but is not a required maneuver on the checkride...although, if you screw up the single engine ILS, you will have an opportunity to demonstrate it! ;-)

FL990;

Please take at look at the ATP/Type Rating Practical Test Standards Page 2-26 subpart F. It's very clear.

I usually don't put anything out when I don't have the facts.

 

[flyguy81]

got my type/atp this month and no single engine missed, but we did do it in training with a lot of other things.

 

[SizzleChest]

got my type/atp this month and no single engine missed, but we did do it in training with a lot of other things.

Don't be so sure your APD did the ride fully correct..... when the cat's (FAA APM) away....

 

[John Pennekamp]

I heard Spirit gives all of their pilots a PIC type in initial training.

 

[FL990]

FL990;

Please take at look at the ATP/Type Rating Practical Test Standards Page 2-26 subpart F. It's very clear.

I usually don't put anything out when I don't have the facts.

I have 2 type ratings and my ATP; one was done at ASA and one was not. Granted, I have not looked at the PTS but I can assure you that I did not do a SE missed approach on either ride.

I will look at the PTS and follow up.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

LD is correct, the PTS does state one SE missed approach actual or simulated. Yet, also as many other have said, when I got my ATP/Type my SE approach was to a landing.

 

[FL990]

Deuce,

Is your experience info correct...are you a US air instructor. If so, do you guys do a SE missed approach on your PC's and type rides? I am just curious, because as I said, I have never done one (before the airlines, or now) in a checkride event. I did see the PTS and it does state the requirement. However, the FAA sets up training/checking programs with airlines and schools such as Simuflite, Bombardier, and Flightsafety...and it is possible that these approved programs do not require that manuever in the checkride itself so long as it is trained. That is the only explanation that i have...but I can assure you that the APD and examiners are NOT just overlooking it.

 

[Mike man]

I heard Spirit gives all of their pilots a PIC type in initial training.

Spirit does type and/or ATP all new hires in the A320. Most of the countries we currently fly to and one planned require both pilots to be typed in the airplane...I think it may be an ICAO requirement.

 

[rausda27]

I was typed under Part 61 at FlightSafety and we had to do a SE missed approach.​

From the PTS...​

F. TASK: MISSED APPROACH
REFERENCES: 14 CFR part 61; POH; AFM; AIM; Standard
Instrument Approach Procedure Charts (SIAP); FAA-H-8083-15,
FAA-H-8261-1.​

NOTE:

The applicant must perform two missed approaches with one being from a precision approach (ILS, MLS, or GLS). One complete published missed approach must be accomplished.

Additionally, in multiengine airplanes, a missed approach must be accomplished with one engine inoperative (or simulated inoperative).

The engine failure may be experienced anytime prior to the initiation of the approach, during the approach, or during the transition to the missed approach attitude and configuration.​

​

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Spirit does type and/or ATP all new hires in the A320. Most of the countries we currently fly to and one planned require both pilots to be typed in the airplane...I think it may be an ICAO requirement.

Congrats on Spirit AB. What's the secret... I've been trying to get there for a year now, no luck. PM me the secret will ya.
Anyway the both pilots typed deal is why we now have that silly SIC only type for all the FO's

 

[CHQ Pilot]

I've had to do a single engine missed approach and landing on every type ride, every FO PC, ATP, and each Captain PC I did. Although I don't think it is a requirement, but the engine failure always came in the form of a V1 cut. I've never heard of anyone not doing a SE approach (even on FO PCs) unless it was some type of AQP program, but there can always be some exemptions. That's scary if they are not testing them on type rides or PCs.

 

[flyguy81]

did the v1 cut and a engine failure after gear up on a 2 engine ILS missed ...don't really consider that a single engine go-around as both were working when the thrust levers were advanced atthe time of the go around. call it what you want, but i'd only consider it a SE go around if you were only on 1 engine to begin with.

 

[FL990]

Just to clarify...

I am NOT saying that we don't do v1 cuts or SE ILS approaches for our type rides and PC's...we do and the SE ILS has to be hand flown. I am just saying that I have never, on any type ride which I have completed, done a SE missed approach. I DO see the PTS and see it clearly and you are all correct in that it does state it as a requirement. HOWEVER, when you go through a 121 or 142 approved training course, the checks are tailored to that course and some of the items may be exempt..(ie. we only do one stall and do not do all three profiles..etc). This is my only explanation for why we don't do them. If there are any ASA instructors/APD's on this board, feel free to chime in.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I have 2 type ratings and my ATP; one was done at ASA and one was not. Granted, I have not looked at the PTS but I can assure you that I did not do a SE missed approach on either ride.

I will look at the PTS and follow up.

I'm confused. I fly for ASA and had to do a SE missed on my type ride. So has everyone I know. It's required. If you didn't do one, I wouldn't brag about it.

 

[FL990]

I'm confused. I fly for ASA and had to do a SE missed on my type ride. So has everyone I know. It's required. If you didn't do one, I wouldn't brag about it.

I am not bragging about anything. In my upgrade class, no one else had to do one either...and when we were going through training, we did one, but the instructor said that we wouldn't have to do it on the type ride unless we put ourselves in that situation (ie. messed up the SE ILS) which I didn't. Also, I have never done one on a pro check...The ONLY time I have ever been required to do a SE missed approach is during training.

And everyone I know didn't have to do one either, so I don't know...that is all I am saying...

I am still waiting for an IP to step in and explain

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am not bragging about anything. In my upgrade class, no one else had to do one either...and when we were going through training, we did one, but the instructor said that we wouldn't have to do it on the type ride unless we put ourselves in that situation (ie. messed up the SE ILS) which I didn't. Also, I have never done one on a pro check...The ONLY time I have ever been required to do a SE missed approach is during training.

And everyone I know didn't have to do one either, so I don't know...that is all I am saying...

I am still waiting for an IP to step in and explain

Aw shucks, you're right, I must have screwed up my type ride. Because when I did the single engine approach, and and the FO called approach lights in sight at 200-1/2, suddenly, the visibility in the sim dropped to zero and we had to go around.

 

[LittleDeuce]

ATP/Type Rating

Aw shucks, you're right, I must have screwed up my type ride. Because when I did the single engine approach, and and the FO called approach lights in sight at 200-1/2, suddenly, the visibility in the sim dropped to zero and we had to go around.

Gentleman;

I say again. You are required to demonstrate two missed approaches on an ATP/Type Rating ride per FAR 121 Appendix E & F and the Practal Test Standards. One must be single engine.

The issues you are facing are ones of standardization. Just because the Check Airman did not give a single engine go-around does not mean you are not required to demonstrate one.

Unless you are training under AQP, you are required to do it period!

 

[stratman560]

I know we have already established the fact that you must do a SE Go-around and not to add more fire to the FLAME here but I can distinctly remember getting the SE ILS AND Go-Around at Simuflite on a type ride on the Citation. I remember knowing it was coming because they fail the right engine so that you still have your TOGA on the left lever for the go-around to reset your command bars. I guess the moral of the story here is that examiners/check airmen make mistakes and sometimes you get off easy.

 

[SizzleChest]

Just to clarify...

I am NOT saying that we don't do v1 cuts or SE ILS approaches for our type rides and PC's...we do and the SE ILS has to be hand flown. I am just saying that I have never, on any type ride which I have completed, done a SE missed approach. I DO see the PTS and see it clearly and you are all correct in that it does state it as a requirement. HOWEVER, when you go through a 121 or 142 approved training course, the checks are tailored to that course and some of the items may be exempt..(ie. we only do one stall and do not do all three profiles..etc). This is my only explanation for why we don't do them. If there are any ASA instructors/APD's on this board, feel free to chime in.

3 stall configurations exist in your training manual. 2 stalls can be waived at the discretion of the IP. The remaining stall must be done in a turn.