Flight Instructing while at a regional?

[CaptO'Brien]

Can you still Flight Instruct part time while working at a regional?...If not, are all regionals the same way or do some allow you to do some instructing on the side? Thanks.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Where I work there is a policy of no outside commercial flying unless you get clearance from the Director of Op's. You gotta go talk to your Chief Pilot and plead your case that you won't make yourself time out.

With the way regionals are short staffed you will most likely be flying close to 90 hours a month, leaving little for outside instruction.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Nope. Not for "commercial purposes" anyway. You can do ground or sims but you cannot fly as PIC or log any instructor time. Basically the regionals want to be able to use you for 100/month, 1000/year, 30 in 7 etc.

Nothing stopping you from getting paid to do BFRs, IPCs etc as long as the other guy is acting as PIC. You just can't log instructor time in either your or the student's logbook. So if a private pilot wants you to ride along while he practices landings, that's fine (as long as he's current). He just can't use it as "dual-given" towards a new rating or certificate. And if he wants to pay you under the table, that's fine too

You can also be a designated examiner for the FAA and give checkrides. You do not act as PIC doing that.

 

[Vertigo37]

A secret is only a secret if you're the only one that knows it!

Not being a schoolhouse lawyer or anything, but this is one of the most misunderstood reg out there. For your own peace of mind, get a ruling from the FAA Counsel General. It is the only opinion that counts.

For unofficial, but good interpretation, call AOPA. Lastly, if you do instruct, do it low key. You will have Flt Ops Schoolhouse Lawyers make their own interpretation....so you're guilty until innocent.

Flight instructing is not a commercial operation. You are being paid for instruction, not providing a pilot service. In a way, the history changed in 1997 when Flight Instructors where no longer required to carry a second class medical. This is a key point. So here's the quick snapshot: 1. You do not need a second class. Only a third class is required for primary instruction. So since you need a second class for a commercial operation....the last I checked, a third class in not a commercial area. 2. You are not carrying passengers or cargo----providing a pilot service. The compensation is for instructing. 3. When not acting as PIC, you need no medical. So again, how can this be a commercial operation?

Where you get into trouble is in the grey areas, like duty time. Instruct this morning. Jumpseat in the afternoon. Fly tonight. Have an incident. Explain yourself. It could be an issue.

Risk. Your certificate for your professional living is at risk. You have an issue crop up while instructing, you need to be prepared that it could effect your certificates for your employer.

Personally, I think the instructing side needs more airline types to stay instructing and be the role model in most cases. Unfortunately, there are very few of us who want to take the risks associated with it because every company and FSDO has a different interpretation.

Like one Inspector told me: "The regs are gray so we can make take emergency actions on the spot and let the system make the interpretation."

Do what you feel is right for you----and keep it to yourself.:beer:

 

[Midnight Flyer]

When I was earning my ratings, my flight instructor got hired at one of the commuters (but still flight instructed on the side). All the students at the local flight school all looked up to him like he was God. He probably kept instructing so he could be a showoff since he was now an "airline pilot".

 

[bluefishbeagle]

You have to be a commercial pilot to be an instructor, I doubt it gets much clearer than that.

However, I agree with you in theory. As a matter of fact a military instructor or pilot can fly his/her pants off if it's for Uncle Sam and not one miniute is considered commerical flying. Not you tell me which would be most tiring, flying an F-teen around the sky or a C150? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Black Hawk]

Not being a schoolhouse lawyer or anything, but this is one of the most misunderstood reg out there. For your own peace of mind, get a ruling from the FAA Counsel General. It is the only opinion that counts.

For unofficial, but good interpretation, call AOPA. Lastly, if you do instruct, do it low key. You will have Flt Ops Schoolhouse Lawyers make their own interpretation....so you're guilty until innocent.

Flight instructing is not a commercial operation. You are being paid for instruction, not providing a pilot service. In a way, the history changed in 1997 when Flight Instructors where no longer required to carry a second class medical. This is a key point. So here's the quick snapshot: 1. You do not need a second class. Only a third class is required for primary instruction. So since you need a second class for a commercial operation....the last I checked, a third class in not a commercial area. 2. You are not carrying passengers or cargo----providing a pilot service. The compensation is for instructing. 3. When not acting as PIC, you need no medical. So again, how can this be a commercial operation?

Where you get into trouble is in the grey areas, like duty time. Instruct this morning. Jumpseat in the afternoon. Fly tonight. Have an incident. Explain yourself. It could be an issue.

Risk. Your certificate for your professional living is at risk. You have an issue crop up while instructing, you need to be prepared that it could effect your certificates for your employer.

Personally, I think the instructing side needs more airline types to stay instructing and be the role model in most cases. Unfortunately, there are very few of us who want to take the risks associated with it because every company and FSDO has a different interpretation.

Like one Inspector told me: "The regs are gray so we can make take emergency actions on the spot and let the system make the interpretation."

Do what you feel is right for you----and keep it to yourself.:beer:

Finally someone has it right. You don't even need to have a third class medical to give flight instruction as long as the person receiving instruction is acting as PIC. Flight instruction is not a commercial operation.

 

[Ben Johnson]

Ever heard of MY BEST FRIENDS CALL ME CASH

 

[EatinRamen]

How about this one...

A friend of yours buys an airplane and intends to get his private. He's got tons of money so he goes out and buys a high performance single. Turns out he has too little time to train, but asks you to fly the airplane for him and will pay you to do it. Is this considered commercial flying? You didn't hold out or advertise your services. You fly maybe once every two weeks.

 

[AC560]

You have to be a commercial pilot to be an instructor, I doubt it gets much clearer than that.

You have to hold a commercial certificate to gain or use the privileges of an instructor certificate. It is not considered commercial flying by the FAA which is why it does not require a 2nd class medical.

"The FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for piloting the aircraft but is rather compensation for the instruction. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising only the privileges of a private pilot. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. Therefore, since a certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising the privileges of a private pilot, he or she only needs to hold a third class medical certificate"

Source

 

[DoinTime]

Don't worry....once you make captain at your regional you'll be doing primary instruction all over again every day you fly.

 

[QuasarZ]

just curious... does the 1000 100 and 30 apply only to commercial ops? What if somebody owned there own plane and flew it for fun on the weekends or whatever?

 

[Turtlesfly]

Don't worry....once you make captain at your regional you'll be doing primary instruction all over again every day you fly.

Beat me to it . . . I haven't stopped since I've been here, with certain breaks.

 

[John Pennekamp]

How about this one...

A friend of yours buys an airplane and intends to get his private. He's got tons of money so he goes out and buys a high performance single. Turns out he has too little time to train, but asks you to fly the airplane for him and will pay you to do it. Is this considered commercial flying? You didn't hold out or advertise your services. You fly maybe once every two weeks.

I'd say it's good to have doctors for friends. Enjoy the Bonanza.

But if he pays you to fly him and you don't sign his logbook it's commercial.

 

[John Pennekamp]

If you fly for an airline and instruct on the side, whether instructing is really interpreted as commercial flying or not isn't the point. The restriction is usually in your airline's FOM, not the FARs.

At ASA, we have an FOM restriction limiting outside flying, INCLUDING flight instruction. You have to get approval (which you will not receive, so don't ask). This is because THEY interpret it as commercial flying and since it's gray they don't want to risk the FAA ruling its commercial if you have an incident or "time out". In essence, the airlines are erring on the conservative side.

That said, it's really easy to get caught, especially if you work for ASA and instruct at places like Falcon field, PDK, or Newnan. Lots of management types keep planes out there or "know people". The people that hang out at FBOs can spot an airline guy a mile away and may "call their buddy". I know pilots that have been fired for moonlighting. Be careful and keep it under the table.

 

[Goose Egg]

When I move on to a regional, I will miss flight instructing...

...But not so much that I'd risk my airline job for it. Instructing has been a positive experience, but for me it's a means to an end, not the end itself.

-Goose

 

[John Pennekamp]

The thing is, most of us feel that way. Most airline pilots who instruct on the side, don't do it because they love instruction so much. It's because either they're starving FOs who need the $$$ or it's because a friend wants to get rated and you instruct them for free to help them out.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And you'll still get to instruct at the airline. With the experience level of the new hires these days, every captain is an instructor.

 

[Goose Egg]

And you'll still get to instruct at the airline. With the experience level of the new hires these days, every captain is an instructor.

It's funny that you use the word "get" as in "get to instruct." Instructing is what I'm trying to "get" as in "get away from!!"

-Goose

 

[John Pennekamp]

It's funny that you use the word "get" as in "get to instruct." Instructing is what I'm trying to "get" as in "get away from!!"

-Goose

I was that way too when I instructed full time. But when you move on and haven't done it for a bunch of years, you'll look back and think "I miss it a little, but not enough to do it full time".

 

[Goose Egg]

I was that way too when I instructed full time. But when you move on and haven't done it for a bunch of years, you'll look back and think "I miss it a little, but not enough to do it full time".

True. Even as I took a moment to consider what I had written about wanting to "get away from" instructing, I thought to myself that I would miss it. But I guess if everything goes well career wise, I'll have a little extra funds to do some fun flying myself. It's so hard for me to mentally separate flying single-engine GA airplanes (which I absolutely love) from flight instructing (which I find marginally rewarding from time to time). The thought just occured to me that I could fly single engine airplanes myself... for fun! I feel so greedy right now! ASES here I come...




....in a few years.

-Goose

 

[flyboy06]

AC560, I liked what you had to say, too bad ALPA and most companies are not on your side (not permitted at XJT anyway)

From the ALPA site regarding flight time:

For example, if a flight crewmember had engaged in commercial flying (e.g., flight instruction charter flying, etc.) that totaled 10 hours during a seven-day period, the crewmember could only accept an assignment of 20 hours during this same period from a
Part 121 air carrier. Flying for the Department of Defense (Reserve or National Guard) is not considered commercial flying time and need not be counted for purposes of the yearly, monthly or weekly flight time limitations.

​

 

[jayme]

I got permission from SkyWest a few years ago. No problem.

 

[Black Hawk]

AC560, I liked what you had to say, too bad ALPA and most companies are not on your side (not permitted at XJT anyway)

From the ALPA site regarding flight time:

For example, if a flight crewmember had engaged in commercial flying (e.g., flight instruction charter flying, etc.) that totaled 10 hours during a seven-day period, the crewmember could only accept an assignment of 20 hours during this same period from a
Part 121 air carrier. Flying for the Department of Defense (Reserve or National Guard) is not considered commercial flying time and need not be counted for purposes of the yearly, monthly or weekly flight time limitations.​

Just another case where ALPA doesn't really know what it's talking about. Of course if a company like XJT has a policy against it then it could be a problem. That would be different than an FAA regulatory requirement though.

 

[AC560]

AC560, I liked what you had to say, too bad ALPA and most companies are not on your side (not permitted at XJT anyway)

What Blackhawk said.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I flight instruct while at a regional.

All the time I get these FOs with 300 hours that do not know how to fly an airplane or talk on the radios. I had better instrument students when I was a CFI.

 

[hawaiimei]

XJT doesn't prohibit flight instructing, and you do not have to have permission to do so - the manual changed this year:

"...each pilot must refrain from engaging in any activity or employment outside of the company. However a pilot may do so if the outside employment/activity is not in a competitive field, detrimental to Expressjet's interest, in violation of the Company Conflict of Interest policy, and does not adversely affect or lessen the pilot's efficiency in the performance of his or her duties."

and it goes on to say:

"In the event a pilot is found to be engaging in an outside activity or activity that the Company feels is distracting from his/her ability to properly handle his/her Expressjet job, that employee shall be notified in writing to curtail such activity to the extent that it no longer detracts from his/her primary duties with Expressjet Airlines."

XJTused to prohibit commercial flying, but the change now allows you to 1) go do your thing without first seeking out a letter of permission 2) if the company finds out (no longer places the responsibility on the individual to disclose).. the the worst thing that happens is that the Company is required to advise you of the problem and provide you the oppurtunity to stop before you get your ass in a sling.

That said, in the event you have a duty time problem or an incident while teaching - you best have something better than the Chewbacha defense when you attempt to articulate your situation to the Chief.

 

[Vicman]

a thought

I too am contemplating part-time flight instruction. I don't fully undestand if that time as IP would could as "commercial flying time" against Part 121 FAA flight time limits...BUT...Hypothetically, could'nt an airline pilot time out for the year (1000 hrs) and then be assigned "pt 91" company reposition flights until dec 31st. If so then, flight instruction should pose no conflict (other than certificate action etc.)

If someone's got another take let me know..before i stray down the wrong path here. thx

 

[Freight Dog]

Hypothetically, could'nt an airline pilot time out for the year (1000 hrs) and then be assigned "pt 91" company reposition flights until dec 31st.

Maybe at Mesa.....

If you are being paid to move an airplane from Point A to point B, I believe the 1000 hour limitation applies even for repo flights...

What this "Part 91" rule is referring to is if you had a C-172 that you wanted to take out for $100 burger some place, you're not prohibited from doing that if you flew 1000 hours at your airline as you're not getting paid for it, and it's pleasure flying.

 

[koepp]

This came from the Q&A section that the FAA used to have on their site.

QUESTION: Does time spent off duty providing flight training under Part 61 as a certified flight instructor (CFI) count toward the maximum time I am permitted to fly commercially in a part 121 air carrier operation? For example, I am a pilot for United Airlines in scheduled passenger carrying operations. I want to provide flight training as a CFI at my home airport in a small general aviation airplane

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(a) and § 121.471(a) or (b); Yes, the flight time a person provides giving flight training under Part 61 as a certified flight instructor (CFI) during his “off time” counts toward/against the maximum time permitted to be flown commercially in a part 121 air carrier operation.

The maximum time permitted to be flown commercially in a part 121 air carrier operation is based on the flight time limitations established in:

Subpart Q of Part 121 [i.e., § 121.471]; or

Subpart R of Part 121 [i.e., § 121.481 or § 121.483 or § 121.485 or § 121.487 or § 121.489, as appropriate]; or

Subpart S of Part 121 [i.e., § 121.503 or § 121.505 or § 121.507 or § 121.509 or § 121.515 or § 121.517 or § 121.521 or § 121.523 or § 121.525, as appropriate].

In discussing this question with the FAA’s Air Transportation Division, AFS‑200, air carriers have standing directives to its flight crew personnel that they must inform or refrain from outside commercial flying activities.


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