CC air guys....what happened over there?

[suupah]

Is ALPA responsible for CCair's misfortune? or is there more to this story.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Johnny O is what happened to CCAir.

 

[VeeOne]

CC Air fought hard and got an industry leading 19 seat aircraft payscale. Ornstein bought them out, liquidated them, and dumped the pilots out on the street. ALPA didn't fight for their integration into the Mesa seniority list. This is how I understand it- I never worked there.

 

[suupah]

The president of Colgan Air put out a company memo stating that ALPA was responsible for all the pilots at CCair losing their jobs.
I was wanting to hear from CCair pilots if that is true at face value or if there is more to the story.

 

[LearLove]

Mesa bought them, JO offered integration at DOH but only under the Mesa contract (CC Air contract goes away). CC Air guys said no so JO slowly shut them down and transfered flying to the Mesa cert.

 

[Godfather]

Propoganda from the Anti-Union Playbook

Is ALPA responsible for CCair's misfortune? or is there more to this story.

Read the other replies about this. I hate to say it but Ol' Mike got it wrong again. JO screwed CCAIR up not ALPA. ALPA did what it could to have a fair seniority list integration and did OK there but when ALPA refused to budge on pay, JO had his way and just shut down CCAir and moved all the planes, property and peeps over to Mesa. I'm sure that several ex-chicken drivers will tell ya what really happened. Don't you know not to trust what comes out of the Kremlin in HEF?

 

[DrewBlows]

The president of Colgan Air put out a company memo stating that ALPA was responsible for all the pilots at CCair losing their jobs.

That's like Ike blaming Tina for forcing him to beat her. "I only beat you 'cause I love you."

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA didn't fight for their integration into the Mesa seniority list.

Umm, wrong! ALPA did fight for their integration onto the MAG list, and they were all integrated when the current contract was ratified. If it wasn't for ALPA, the CCAir pilots would have been completely screwed and without work. As usual, Mikey doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

 

[CHQ Pilot]

Maybe I don't remember this right, but didn't CC Air agree to a concessionary contract to keep their jobs (and CC Air alive), but ALPA national in the end would not sign off on it? I remember one of their guys in RDU telling me about how they were filing a lawsuit against ALPA. Honestly I don't remember the details, but I remember it wasn't pretty.

 

[Inconceivable]

PCL 128 has it right.

JO shut them down, held the pilots hostage, and ALPA forced JO to give them DOH at Mesa in order to ratify their last contract (now THERE is something you can blame ALPA for) taking many of the CCAir peeps from the 1900 to the CRJ.

One valid reason for not slagging on everyone with a Mesa ID--some were purchased, not willing applicants.



Hey Colgan guys: Why would you believe anything Mike Colgan tells you? These are the people who encouraged canceling IFR to avoid ATC delays in the Beech, allows upgrades on a whim, and staff the front office with family members like some kind of Chinese restaurant. Remember "Jets are coming. Soon."

Oh please.

 

[70-SS]

Hey Colgan guys: Why would you believe anything Mike Colgan tells you?

Right. Ask him how long he plans to stay around, any of them for that matter. Management hates pilots, so why would you listen to ANYTHING they put out.

 

[Soverytired]

Umm, wrong! ALPA did fight for their integration onto the MAG list, and they were all integrated when the current contract was ratified. If it wasn't for ALPA, the CCAir pilots would have been completely screwed and without work. As usual, Mikey doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

This isn't entirely 100% accurate either. JO tried to use CCAir as a whipsaw against the rest of the pilot group. The carrot was the CRJ7/CRJ9. As I understand it, CCAir was offered a contract with rates for these planes (and not so trivial, their jobs), they approved it, then DW refused to sign off on it.

Whether you agree with what CCAir did or not, I've always thought DW was a jackass for not signing off on the CCAir contract which they voted on . . . all because the larger group (MESA) saw that as their chip in the big game. A chip, I might add, was mismanaged by Mesa-Alpa with the whole F8 debacle.

They were then slowly shut down, and ALPA then fought to have them brought to Mesa's seniority list with a merging protocol that was never really explained to the group. I had one rep pretty much tell me that they sat down in a room and said "That guy there, this guy here".

 

[Fred Rogers]

That's like Ike blaming Tina for forcing him to beat her. "I only beat you 'cause I love you."

You said it. JO is the issue here.

 

[PCL_128]

Whether you agree with what CCAir did or not, I've always thought DW was a jackass for not signing off on the CCAir contract which they voted on . . . all because the larger group (MESA) saw that as their chip in the big game. A chip, I might add, was mismanaged by Mesa-Alpa with the whole F8 debacle.

Your perceptions of why DW refused to sign the CCAir agreement aren't correct. There were two reasons that he refused to sign it:

1. The CBA was in violation of the ALPA Admin Manual - The CBA was highly concessionary in nature. The Admin Manual has certain criteria that must be met before an MEC is allowed to engage in concessionary bargaining. One of those criteria is a requirement that the company present evidence that the airline needs the concessions in order to survive. JO refused to provide any such evidence, but the CCAir MEC went ahead with the concessionary talks anyway. As a result, the CBA was in violation of ALPA policy, and DW really had no choice but to refuse signing it.

2. The CBA was negotiated under extreme duress - The pilots of CCAir were negotiating for their survival. They knew that JO would cast them off without a second thought and all of them would be without jobs. So, the MEC was willing to do just about anything to prevent that, whether JO really needed the concessions or not.

 

[340SAM]

So when Colgan gets another order for Qs by a different code share. Does ALPA have to sign off on it even if the Colgan pilots agree or can APLA be strong armed by the larger PNLC pilot group not to sign and try to get the planes over there? This is a question not a statement.

Thank you

 

[BirdCatcher]

So when Colgan gets another order for Qs by a different code share. Does ALPA have to sign off on it even if the Colgan pilots agree or can APLA be strong armed by the larger PNLC pilot group not to sign and try to get the planes over there? This is a question not a statement.

Thank you

I believe Pinnacle ALPA has tried to talk to Pinnacle management about a Fence agreement to keep Colgan a turboprop carrier and Pinnacle a jet carrier (as Uncle Phil said they said they wanted to do) So if that agreement was in place, Colgan flies the Q


but Pinnacle management refuses to discuss the matter (hence the grievence filed by Pinnacle ALPA). Why would they refuse to to put something in writing they already said they are going to do anyway? Bueller, Bueller.. anyone?

 

[belchfire]

For the Colgan guys the message is that you need to get representation ASAP...when management tells you that unions are bad what they really mean is that it's bad for them, not the pilots.

MAG now has incorporated in it's seniority list a bunch of people who JO deliberatly tried to put on the street because they had a good contract. My guess is that in future negotiations it will be the CCAir guys that lead the charge to get a reasonable contract out of them and I wish them luck...

 

[Fred Rogers]

Why would they refuse to to put something in writing they already said they are going to do anyway? Bueller, Bueller.. anyone?

Excellent Question birdcatcher. Excellent Question.

For the Colgan guys the message is that you need to get representation ASAP...when management tells you that unions are bad what they really mean is that it's bad for them, not the pilots.

Exactly.

 

[YMICFI]

Excellent Question birdcatcher. Excellent Question.

It is. Tell you why they won't. They hope the ALPA vote fails and then they are able to whipsaw the two pilot groups in a race to the bottom.

 

[shamrock]

Hey man, this is a thread about Colgan and Pinnacle, why are you talking about ASA and SkyWest? Jeez.

 

[YMICFI]

Hey man, this is a thread about Colgan and Pinnacle, why are you talking about ASA and SkyWest? Jeez.[/quote]

Well played. We obviously wouldn't be the first this would happen to. Our pilots at Colgan need to understand the other examples out there like this. If they understand what will happen if the vote fails, they would vote yes.

 

[shamrock]

Yeah, the similarities of the respective situations struck me when I read your post.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[Fred Rogers]

It is. Tell you why they won't. They hope the ALPA vote fails and then they are able to whipsaw the two pilot groups in a race to the bottom.

ha ha.. is it THAT OBVIOUS????

I would think that management would JUMP at the opportunity to sign on to something that they have proposed.

SOMETHING SMELLS FISHY!!

VOTE YES!!!!!

 

[A350]

Yes....JO tried to whipsaw the groups. As soon as the CCAir guys would agree on a contract, he would take it off the table and add more concessions.

The main problem is DW refused to sign the contract and when push came to shove, the Mesa guys, who for months were coddling the CCAir guys with delusions of unity shoved them off a cliff. The CCAir operation was shut down. The CCAir pilots were out on the street.

Now, if you figure that in the end the CCAir guys were integrated and did have jobs, you are correct. I just wonder how much pepto bismol it would take to have to stomach losing your job "for the cause" and then having to wait two years to get your job back.

It wasn't the first time an ALPA group was or has been sacrificed at the altar of unionism....Anyone remember the Wien air pilots?

My hat is always off to the CCAir guys.

A350

 

[BoilerUP]

What were the payrates like at CC Air? I've heard those folks made more to fly a J-ball than others got flying Saabs and even RJs...

 

[foreverfo]

Looking at my first paystub from the Chicken as a newhire FO on the Jetscreamer in 1999 I was making $20.43/hour. If I recall, JO wanted FOs to take a paycut to $13/hr or something and become a EMB-145 base or something.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

I am also ex CCAIR. What happened to the Mighty Chicken Chicken? WE HAD THE BALLS to sand up to Ornstein and tell him no paycuts, no concessions and we will not whore ourselves out for the oppurtunity for growth. We injured his ego, so he pulled the plug on us. We were by far not an expensive airline or had high operating costs. We bruised JO's ego. So, he had no choice. If every regional would have taken notes and stood up to management, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in by being paid less as the costs of living have risen and we would have much more respect now instead of being looked down upon like just being skilled labor. Also the regionals wouldn't have shifted around all over the place, domiciles wouldn't have been disrupted and even ACA may have still been around today. We had a very dedicated bunch at CCAIR, we were mostly local Carolinians and working there (until JO showed up) was like one big huge party. When JO showed up, the job was no longer fun, and all he kept saying was he wasn't going to liquidate CCAIR. Nov 2002, Ornstein showed everyone he still can't tell the truth to save his life. If Mesa didn't take over (hostile takeover), I would probably would have stayed.

J and E's Daddy

Many at CCAIR remembered me as "Flash"

 

[FDJ2]

August 30, 2002
Court Upholds ALPA’s Rejection Of Concessionary Contract in CCAir Suit

CHARLOTTE, N.C.---A federal district court judge yesterday rejected efforts by Mesa Air Group to judicially impose a concessionary collective bargaining proposal for pilots at its CCAir subsidiary.

The suit was initially brought by a CCAir pilot and then joined by management after the president of the Air Line Pilots Association indicated he would not sign the proposed concessionary contract amendment. Although the proposal had been accepted by CCAir local union leaders and members, ALPA’s Constitution and By-laws requires that its president review and approve each collective bargaining agreement before it can be effective.

ALPA President Duane Woerth declined to approve the extremely concessionary proposal, which came in the context of an unbroken campaign of threats and intimidation by CCAir and Mesa Air Group to shut down the carrier if the pilots did not give up their existing agreement. President Woerth refused to approve the proposed agreement because it unjustifiably degraded pilot working conditions and offered no job security for CCAir pilots in return for the concessions. President Woerth also determined that the carrier’s management never demonstrated the need for the requested concessions and failed to show how the concessions would help save the carrier or the pilots’ jobs.

In denying a motion for a preliminary injunction which sought to order President Woerth to approve the concessionary proposal, Chief U.S. District Judge Graham C. Mullen agreed with ALPA that the requirement that its president review and approve collective bargaining agreements was well known to CCAir representatives and that there could be no collective bargaining agreement without that approval. Judge Mullen also noted that the rejected proposed agreement would likely make no immediate difference to the status of CCAir and its pilots, observing that their fate rests in the decisions of the carrier’s sole customer, US Airways, as to the flying it will permit CCAir to perform on its behalf.

 

[foreverfo]

Wasn't it Grant with his cane that sold the Chicken to JO? INT was shutdown by JO because that was an "old Piedmont" commuter haven to CLT. All sorts of other places were such down by JO in eastern NC. I remember hauling around a mainline CP between CLT-HKY! Does USAir even serve SOP anymore? What a golfers haven that was, brought full planes year round almost.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

Wasn't it Grant with his cane that sold the Chicken to JO? INT was shutdown by JO because that was an "old Piedmont" commuter haven to CLT. All sorts of other places were such down by JO in eastern NC. I remember hauling around a mainline CP between CLT-HKY! Does USAir even serve SOP anymore? What a golfers haven that was, brought full planes year round almost.

HKY and RWI have no more airline service

SOP and ISO are served by ASA.