Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

ANG ART vs Airlines

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
T

tedspal01

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Posts
13
I am a full time ANG technician looking into going to the airlines. Just wondered what opinions people had about each path. I just got off AD and am 29 with a little under 2000 military hours.

Thanks
 
Tespal,
Make a list of what is valuable to you, whether it's time off, money, quality of life, etc. Then compare the airlines (both freight and pax) to what you are doing now in the ANG. Add in known or probable add ons' (marriage, kids). Then extrapolate it out to the point you can retire from one or the other (age 55 to 65). Your answer will probably become obvious.
Biff
 
There was a thread on the military section here on the "joys" of being an ART.

I'm not military so I can't comment on the ART thing but they didn't paint a very rosy picture of being an ART.

You will need to get more time if you want to apply to the majors. I'd imagine the ART thing pays better than the regionals. If you have a lot of Lear time, you might get into AirNet (or whoever the big Lear night freight operation is...) and get some time built pretty quick. JMO. Good luck. TC
 
I was an ART for 5 years. The great part about the job is that you are a government employee. Good benefits, but ARTs tend to get roped into working alot of days straight. Inbetween working the 5 days per week, uta, weekend trainers, ja/atts, allocated missions, night trainers, drop zone, and the deployments, time off can get slim.

I left the ART Program for FDX, and have never been happier. There are others who I used to work with that love the ART gig and the security that comes along with it. It all depends on what you want. The airline quality of life is great, but does not have the security of the ART job.

If I would not have gotten hired at FDX, I probably would have made a career out of the ART program.
 
AA717driver said:
There was a thread on the military section here on the "joys" of being an ART.

I'm not military so I can't comment on the ART thing but they didn't paint a very rosy picture of being an ART.

You will need to get more time if you want to apply to the majors. I'd imagine the ART thing pays better than the regionals. If you have a lot of Lear time, you might get into AirNet (or whoever the big Lear night freight operation is...) and get some time built pretty quick. JMO. Good luck. TC
Click to expand...

The amount of time a person has counts, but the amount of PIC is more important. Having 2k total is okay if 1500 (or a large amount) of it's PIC. Find out what each airline you might target requires to be sure. They usually require ATP min's, with a certain amount of PIC. I had 1900 total when I got picked up by a major airline, however 1700 was PIC / IP.
 
The good thing about being an ART is you can quit when you're ready to move on. AGRs are under contract and can't leave until their contract it up (mine is up the end of the month). Take the ART job, get your apps in, and make a decision when you have choices.

BTW, don't fool yourself. ARTs work A LOT. You are essentially an hourly employee of the government, have to keep timecards, follow union rules, etc. Besides that you have to work your guard job. There is definitely an art to being an ART, and figuring out the system to not get screwed and maximize pay. In a traditional unit, you will also have a 12 day hostage crisis once a month.
 
BiffF15 said:
The amount of time a person has counts, but the amount of PIC is more important. Having 2k total is okay if 1500 (or a large amount) of it's PIC. Find out what each airline you might target requires to be sure. They usually require ATP min's, with a certain amount of PIC. I had 1900 total when I got picked up by a major airline, however 1700 was PIC / IP.
Click to expand...

I understand that but you had single-seat time. What are the odds that, with "T's" and Lear in his resume that the bulk of the flight time will be PIC?

Just trying to look at it from an HR perspective (not that I've taken enough drugs to be able to do THAT!) and maybe temper his hopes. He'll get blown away by an RJ captain with 5,000 hours w/1,500 PIC. Doesn't hurt to get in the game early and try, though. JMO. TC
 
Unless I'm mistaken the upgrade time to Lear Capt (civilian speak) is pretty quick. I wouldn't doubt he has already gained a good chunk of PIC time.
I'm not trying to build false hopes for anyone. I just made an assumption based on past experiences in speaking or flying with the C-21 folks.
 
AA717driver said:
I understand that but you had single-seat time. What are the odds that, with "T's" and Lear in his resume that the bulk of the flight time will be PIC?

Just trying to look at it from an HR perspective (not that I've taken enough drugs to be able to do THAT!) and maybe temper his hopes. He'll get blown away by an RJ captain with 5,000 hours w/1,500 PIC. Doesn't hurt to get in the game early and try, though. JMO. TC
Click to expand...

Sorry AA, I've got to raise the BS flag with you. The big falacy folks have is how much quantity is important as opposed to quality. It couldn't be further from the truth. Specifically talking to senior capt's at my current airline (who also do some of the hiring boards) and others, they view a guy with 1000 hour T PIC in F-16, F-15's etc...as valuable or even more so than 4000 hour T PIC in an RJ. Almost every airline is going to realize; depending on your background; what your standard average is supposed to be for competency. I can name fighter guys that got hired at every airline right after their first interview (probably about 12 with SWA in particular) that were on average 30 something with about 1200 hours TPIC in fighters.
 
You might think that there is some sort of equalization with hours. HR also looks at past experience. Like the 121 guy coming from a structured environment knowing he can fit right in versus less hours, and previous commitments.
 
Scrapdog said:
Sorry AA, I've got to raise the BS flag with you. The big falacy folks have is how much quantity is important as opposed to quality. It couldn't be further from the truth. Specifically talking to senior capt's at my current airline (who also do some of the hiring boards) and others, they view a guy with 1000 hour T PIC in F-16, F-15's etc...as valuable or even more so than 4000 hour T PIC in an RJ. Almost every airline is going to realize; depending on your background; what your standard average is supposed to be for competency. I can name fighter guys that got hired at every airline right after their first interview (probably about 12 with SWA in particular) that were on average 30 something with about 1200 hours TPIC in fighters.
Click to expand...

You didn't read what I wrote. I know they value single seat time more than RJ. That was my point. The original poster doesn't have any single seat time other than trainers in his list of aircraft flown (you can bet if he flew fighters, he'd let EVERYONE know... ;) ).

I'm guessing he's flying Lears for the AF and not in the private sector. That's why he's low time for a lear pilot and asking for info about the airlines.

I'm saying that, in his CURRENT situation, he's going to lose out to the thousands of RJ guys out there who have a bunch more time than he has.

He needs to do something to get competitive. Ask your captains how competitive a lear pilot with 2000 hours is v. all the RJ CA's out there. TC
 
AA717driver said:
You didn't read what I wrote. I know they value single seat time more than RJ. That was my point. The original poster doesn't have any single seat time other than trainers in his list of aircraft flown (you can bet if he flew fighters, he'd let EVERYONE know... ;) ).

I'm guessing he's flying Lears for the AF and not in the private sector. That's why he's low time for a lear pilot and asking for info about the airlines.

I'm saying that, in his CURRENT situation, he's going to lose out to the thousands of RJ guys out there who have a bunch more time than he has.

He needs to do something to get competitive. Ask your captains how competitive a lear pilot with 2000 hours is v. all the RJ CA's out there. TC
Click to expand...

Gotcha, sorry for the minunderstanding. Unregard my first post - I'm in agreement with you.
 
Scrapdog said:
It couldn't be further from the truth. Specifically talking to senior capt's at my current airline (who also do some of the hiring boards) and others, they view a guy with 1000 hour T PIC in F-16, F-15's etc...as valuable or even more so than 4000 hour T PIC in an RJ. Almost every airline is going to realize; depending on your background; what your standard average is supposed to be for competency.
Click to expand...

Oh pulease! Scrapdog!

I have to disagree. That is all VFR time, and the airlines require much more severe/low IFR flying than you are used to flying in that single seat fighter.

I am sure that a regional jet pilot flying the same schedules that the major is flying is much more valuable during the interview. Hence, why so many regional guys and girls are now piloting the major airliners.

Your job flying the fighters isn't any harder than 6 legs a day in and out of Houston during August.

Nice try though LOL.
 
Last edited:
Pocono Pilot said:
Oh pulease! Scrapdog!

I have to disagree. That is all VFR time, and the airlines require much more severe/low IFR flying than you are used to flying in that single seat fighter.

I am sure that a regional jet pilot flying the same schedules that the major is flying is much more valuable during the interview. Hence, why so many regional guys and girls are now piloting the major airliners.

Your job flying the fighters isn't any harder than 6 legs a day in and out of Houston during August.

Nice try though LOL.
Click to expand...
FYI, since you haven't done both...and I have (twin otters in Bethel and CV-580's in Alaska and the lower 48, F-16's stateside, Korea, and Iraq, and 737's Alaska and lower 48) I can safely say that you don't know what you are talking about. You are presuming that you know what flying a fighter is. I can tell you that it is infinitely more challenging than flying airliners and GA. Deal with it. oh yeah, LOL too.
 
I started out flying C-21's out of Air Force pilot training. Upgrade to PIC could happen as fast as a little over a year. He could easily have 800+ hours PIC in the lear as I did by age 26.
 
Pocono Pilot said:
Oh pulease! Scrapdog!

I have to disagree. That is all VFR time, and the airlines require much more severe/low IFR flying than you are used to flying in that single seat fighter.

I am sure that a regional jet pilot flying the same schedules that the major is flying is much more valuable during the interview. Hence, why so many regional guys and girls are now piloting the major airliners.

Your job flying the fighters isn't any harder than 6 legs a day in and out of Houston during August.

Nice try though LOL.
Click to expand...

Pocono,
Find a fighter guy or gal you know and trust and ask them their perspective on which is more difficult (six legs a day in / out of HOU or flying a fighter). Your post has some assumptions in it which show a lack of exposure to just what a fighter pilot does on both a day to day basis in normal operations as well as during combat.
How's the saying go, "Don't judge someone until you have walked in their shoes".
To those who have done or do both your remarks come across other than the way you intended them.
Biff
 
Oh pulease! Scrapdog!

I have to disagree. That is all VFR time, and the airlines require much more severe/low IFR flying than you are used to flying in that single seat fighter.

I am sure that a regional jet pilot flying the same schedules that the major is flying is much more valuable during the interview. Hence, why so many regional guys and girls are now piloting the major airliners.

Your job flying the fighters isn't any harder than 6 legs a day in and out of Houston during August.

Nice try though LOL.
Click to expand...

pocono,
Spoken like a true 12-year-old. I thought we agreed on another thread that I would send you two Hillary Duff concert tickets if you would spare us all your immature, uninformed, and laughable opinions.

hopefully you're flame-baiting (or flirting), but I think you have lost whatever shred of credibility you think you might have had by belittling the experience of fighter pilots, who are, by the way, logging combat time in some ridiculously challenging conditions. (and no, I am not a fighter pilot.)

But what am I saying, you clearly know it all after all your C-152 and EMB time.
 
Last edited:
I have 1550 hours PIC

Thanks for the vaste response, by far my best response yet. As far as the long discussion on how much PIC time I have; I was a first assignment instructor pilot FAIP and was logging instructor time 35 hours after I graduated pilot training and upgrade to AC in the Lear after 150 hours, since I already had previous flying experience. I know I have enough hours to meet all the mins for the majors. Some of the airlines show how many hours they give you in the military conversion. Delta airlines gave me 2700+ with 2300+ being PIC and Southwest uses the straight .3 per sortie so with over 1200 sorties I got credit for 2300 hours.

As far as leaving for a specific major, do you think I should hold out for anyone specific or use the theory that you should apply to all and the winner is whoever hires you first?

Cheers
 
tedspal01 said:
As far as leaving for a specific major, do you think I should hold out for anyone specific or use the theory that you should apply to all and the winner is whoever hires you first?
Click to expand...

I would highly suggest the former option you listed, rather than the latter. I was never an ART, but In my case I took the first job offered and couldn't be more miserable, largely due to a cross country commute and inflexible schedule. I also took a 60 grand pay cut to boot. It's not really a "dream job", which is one reason I'm hoping to actually quit in favor of an ART job, rather than move. Time will tell if it pans out and I've made the right decision. Remember, the grass is not always greener - I would think the guys in your unit would be telling you this.

As has been stated above, you now have the luxury of holding out for a job you actually WANT, rather than taking the first available - an option not open to someone who's not currenly in a flying job due to flying currency issues. In your current job, you're building PIC/IP time, remaining current, can be in town any time you like, and making around 6 figures doing it. I don't know how things are at your unit, but ARTs in the C-17 community who fly trips can earn enough comp to have the monthly time off to almost equal most airline guys. And, you can use those days when you actually want the time off, rather than trying to bid for them based on your seniority.

I'd say stay put for awhile, build your time, save some $$ for later options, and hold out for the job you want. It may even turn out to be the job you already have!

Run some numbers - under many CURRENT contracts, most everywhere except FDX,UPS, and SW, you'll have to make captain in order to surpass your current salary. This may take 2 years, or it may take 20 (ask a USAir guy).

Good luck with your decision.
 
Tedspal,

Obviously you should apply at US Airways and not worry about the rest.

On a legitimate note, DO NOT let the fact that you may not meet the minimums for a particular airline keep you from applying. Some airlines will look to someone below their posted minimums if they want that pilot.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom