Complaints about ALPA Flight Pay Loss/National Officer "salaries"

[Captain X]

I was gonna post this in the USAir ALPA Decert thread but I figured why not start a new thread.

I'm curious how many of you guys who are upset about your local MEC and ALPA National Flight Pay Loss and Officer Compensation have:

1. Written resolutions at the LEC level,
2. Passed them,
3. Moved them on to the MEC level and then,
4. Have them moved up to the National Executive Board?

If you want it to work, get your buddies in other domiciles/LECs to carry the same resolution forward, get others who believe the same thing you do to go to the LEC meeting to vote or send their proxy (I think it's 1 or 2 proxies per pilot in attendance).

If it passes at the local level but does not move on from there, consider starting a recall movement against the reps in question or the MEC officers in question.

That said, the resolution needs to be "fair." By that I mean it can't be something completely radical (they get no pay, strictly on a volunteer basis!!!) or in violation of C&BL or MEC Policy Manuals.

Base it on the pay in the equipment they are trained and staffed at their airline (not just what they could hold). Consider adding an "override" of sorts b/c they should be "working" 5 days a week. Per diem is not necessary b/c they usually have hotels, meals and incidentals covered through an expense reimbursement accounts at CONUS rates.

It would be similar to what the current process is now but with some tweaks. Do some research at your MEC and come up with a reasonable solution. Then use the structure in place and get involved changing what you don't like about your union.

It's that whole "grass roots," bottom up leadership thing.

Or do nothing and just keep bitching about it on internet boards!

 

[igneousy2]

First - ALPA as a whole won't agree to it. They are already having trouble finding quality people to step into these roles. Additionally, the people that are going to have to vote for these things stand to suffer from their votes. This is the same reason Congreess and their staff have a better pension then all other federal employees.

Second - Flight Pay Loss is covered in all ALPA contracts between the company and the Association. There is no way a company is going to agree to train the MEC chair as a 777 Captain just because he can hold it and their is no way an MEC chair is going to forego the increase in pay just to play MEC chair. It is a partial benefit, but it is also a practical matter. Why waste the money on training. Most managemetn/instrctor postions at companies are handled the same way - get paid what you can hold and we'll put you where we want.

Besides, how ineffective will your MEC be if every year your MEC leadership changes because the pay cut isn't worth it. If you are anti-ALPA, de-certify ALPA, but if I am going to pay 1.9%, I want the people in the leadership roles to be the best possible. Anything that goes against that...I am against...otherwise just stop taking my 1.9% and I'll deal with management on my own.

It always amazes me how pilots act like management when they are the ones having to make the decisions.

The ones wasting their times bitching are usually the ones that have never been an ALPA volunteer. Take a major position in your MEC and you will quicklly find that the Flight Pay Loss isn't enough. It is FAR easier to be a line pilot then a MEC chair.

Later

 

[ualdriver]

I agree with igneousy2 on this one. But if Captain X is a member in good standing and wants to float said resolution, he has every right to do so- and should. Wth the typcial turn out at local council meetings, a few guys on his side with some proxies in their pocket will probably get it passed.

 

[enigma]

ALPA continues to do good work because a few selfless pilots continue to "do the right thing". I'm more than happy to see my reps on FPL as long as they accomplish work on my behalf, and I know that they're doing just that.

If someone doesn't like the FPL incurred by the reps and other volunteers, I'd like to suggest that that someone step up and do the job in the way that person suggests. It would take them about 60 days to resign.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Ya, unless they're getting paid more than anyone in their seniority, picking up trips on holidays, or any other day the company is offering extra pay, and using FPL to sit at home to steal even more cash. But then again, I guess that's OK in your eyes. Hmmm

Yes, I have volunteered.

 

[pianoman]

Ya, unless they're getting paid more than anyone in their seniority, picking up trips on holidays, or any other day the company is offering extra pay, and using FPL to sit at home to steal even more cash. But then again, I guess that's OK in your eyes. Hmmm

Yes, I have volunteered.

Maybe it depends on the airline. I know at XJT the MEC officers did not get any more in their paycheck for picking up trips, even when the company was offering extra pay. It was set up so they could not.

It did, however, reduce the amount that ALPA was billed by the company for these pilots.

And you could not pay me enough to be a MEC chair.

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe it depends on the airline. I know at XJT the MEC officers did not get any more in their paycheck for picking up trips, even when the company was offering extra pay. It was set up so they could not.

That's the way it is at most ALPA airlines, and that's the way the ALPA Admin Manual recommends setting up an MEC FPL policy.

This is really easy, guys. If you don't like your airline's FPL policy (if you even know what it is, which is doubtful since most ALPA members are completely clueless), then bring a resolution to your next Local Council meeting to change the policy. If your MEC refuses to follow the direction in the resolution, then recall them. If you aren't willing to do the legwork, then stop yer bitchin'!

 

[Captain X]

That's the way it is at most ALPA airlines, and that's the way the ALPA Admin Manual recommends setting up an MEC FPL policy.

This is really easy, guys. If you don't like your airline's FPL policy (if you even know what it is, which is doubtful since most ALPA members are completely clueless), then bring a resolution to your next Local Council meeting to change the policy. If your MEC refuses to follow the direction in the resolution, then recall them. If you aren't willing to do the legwork, then stop yer bitchin'!

Exactly.

Personally, I think there are "tweaks" that could be made to the Local and National FPL policies. And I think there should be some policy created to avoid abuse of said policies.

But as a whole, I believe that people that answer the call, personal or otherwise, to serve the piloting profession deserve a certain amount of compensation for it if they are leaders with integrity,

 

[PCL_128]

Captain X, ALPA has recognized the potential for abuse in FPL, especially in light of the situation that took place with the former CAL MEC. The Executive Council is still investigating that situation and will possibly come out with recommendations on a new Admin Manual policy. The first step that Captain Beebe took was requiring all MECs to send copies of their latest FPL policy to Herndon for review. I'm not sure if he requested changes from any MEC.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Keep in mind .... whenever an ALPA volunteer is compensated for expenses the IRS deems that as income and the volunteer must pay taxes on that "income"....

Think about that ......the next time anyone chides a pilot for volunteering....

 

[Captain X]

Captain X, ALPA has recognized the potential for abuse in FPL, especially in light of the situation that took place with the former CAL MEC. The Executive Council is still investigating that situation and will possibly come out with recommendations on a new Admin Manual policy. The first step that Captain Beebe took was requiring all MECs to send copies of their latest FPL policy to Herndon for review. I'm not sure if he requested changes from any MEC.

Fully aware of that. The point of the thread was in response to guys who bitch on here about specific things related to ALPA and yet don't seem to ever do anything about it with the available channels.

The FPL and National Officer pay is one that always seems to come up so that was the one I chose.

 

[PCL_128]

guys who bitch on here about specific things related to ALPA and yet don't seem to ever do anything about it with the available channels.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Whataburger]

Keep in mind .... whenever an ALPA volunteer is compensated for expenses the IRS deems that as income and the volunteer must pay taxes on that "income"....

Think about that ......the next time anyone chides a pilot for volunteering....

As crooked as most ALPA officers are, I am sure they wont mind stiffing the gov't too.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As crooked as most ALPA officers are, I am sure they wont mind stiffing the gov't too.

With the recent change in union finance (LM2) reporting requirements (thanks W!)..the microscope is even stronger....

So what do you mean specifically.... do you have a reference?

 

[WildBlue]

Come on, Rez. He doesn't need any facts. Didn't you know that all ALPA officers are crooks and are just in it for themselves. You were an MEC officer, once upon a time. Bet it was a great deal, for yu, huh?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Come on, Rez. He doesn't need any facts. Didn't you know that all ALPA officers are crooks and are just in it for themselves. You were an MEC officer, once upon a time. Bet it was a great deal, for yu, huh?

usually some guy runs the mouth and after a polite and professional schooling of how it really works, they sheepishly say ok... those with some character actually apologize....

That is the penalty for getting ones union info from the "street"

It is fustrating though because pilots get suckered into these kinds of distractions.... and force the volunteers to address these perceptions instead of defending the profession...

What would you rather have your union volunteer do?

 

[igneousy2]

I've chaired 2 different grievance committees at 2 different airlines, negotiating committee chair so when I got to my latest airline I was asked to help the "hotel committee". I thought - cool - sounds pretty benign in comparrison to what i've done before. Boy was I wrong, from what I experienced and what I heard from other comm. members. Confrontations between Association and management hotel rep - crews calling at all hours because "the van isn't here".

The vast majority of ALPA reps sincerely try to do a good job. We may not always answer your e-mails as quick as you want - at one point I was getting 30-40 a day from various pilots/lawyers/company officials, I am sure I didn't reply to a few. If your phone rang as often as mine would - My record was 32 calls for union business in 1 - 24 hour period - you wouldn't answer it a lot of times either. All this while flying a line and not getting paid one penny more than I would had I just flown my line and went home.

Even if you get 100% FPL (like most MEC chairs and others at larger airlines) it does not pencil out. It becomes a 40-80 hour a week offfice job which is what most of us were trying to avoid by getting into this proffession in the first place.

I want to smack pilots when they complain that "the MEC chair" shouldn't get paid more than a line pilot. (There is very little if any opportunity to do this) If you are jealous, you could have run also. If MEC chairs (and other FT ALPA FPL guys/gals) got paid 150% - even, 200% of what they would make as a line pilot I would not have a problem with it.

In criminal law they say "it is better that 10 guilty men go free, then one innoccent man go to prison" and I say that in FPL "it is better that there be a few instances of abuse of FPL then one well intentioned volunteer lose income."

There is already a mechanism for controlling this - the pilots. Committee chairs/members serve at the will of the MEC - speak to your MEC and have them removed - if they won't - see the next two suggestions. If it is your MEC members, don't vote for them next time there terms expire. If you can't wait that long - start a recall vote.

Go volunteer for any committee and go see how much you can "profit" from FPL. Most volunteers quit in less than 6 months.

Later

 

[PCL_128]

igneousy2, you're wasting your time with these anti-ALPA guys. They want to complain and complain, but none of them want to do anything. They won't even take the time to become informed about those things that they whine about.

Thanks for serving your fellow pilots and your union.

 

[ualdriver]

Nice post igneousy2.

 

[Captain X]

I agree. Good post.

I too have served on various ALPA committees and have been in both pure volunteer and FPL positions.

Both of them were thankless jobs.

FWIW, after I left the FPL position, another ALPA pilot NEVER paid for a meal when he/she was eating with me.

And also, I do feel there are minor issues with the FPL system that can (and should be) addressed at the Local MEC level.

My original post that started this thread was more of a "put up or shut up" response to those who bitch constantly about ALPA and then when there is something going on at their airline they don't like will be the first to ask, "Well, what is the union gonna do about it?"

I've always believed that you get from ALPA what you put into it. Hence the reason why I've volunteered before and will probably end up doing so again....God help me. :erm: