Midwest Airlines

[CitationLover]

You know, this rumor really needs to stop. None of my instructors in the 717 program were anything even remotely resembling "hostile." To the contrary, every one of them gave me their personal cell phone numbers and encouraged me to call them 24 hours a day with any questions I came up with during studying. None raised their voices, kicked any chairs, or did anything else "hostile." Put this ridiculous stereotype to rest.

P.S. Say what you will about Joe, but your boy Timmy certainly isn't the brightest crayon in the carton.

Glad to hear that re: instructors. I will talk to the person I have heard this from (although I see no reason why he would lie about this).

No one said Tim was a genius. I think he is simply trying to save his "baby" to the best of his ability. JL, in all fairness, learned under some ruthless people at NWA, AA, and Eastern. I am sure he is better at his job thanks to this. They're both a little overpaid if you ask me.

 

[PCL_128]

No one said Tim was a genius. I think he is simply trying to save his "baby" to the best of his ability.

But that's not what his job is. His job is to protect the shareholders, not "his baby." The shareholders have loudly voiced their opinion on this, and it doesn't jive with what you and Tim want. It's time for Tim to step aside and let the shareholders get the merger that they want.

 

[FlyWolf]

I am looking for a copy of the YX CBA. Does someone have a copy of the file they can email me, or pm a link to it?

I have been interested in working at YX for a long time, however I want to get a detailed look at their work rules.

Thanks!

Overspeed, CitationLover did a great job listing the Midex work rules, please pm me with your email and I will send you a PDF copy of the CBA.

Good luck to you, and let me know if you need any other info about Midex.

 

[Lear70]

That's not "entirely" accurate.

I said I didn't see the merits of acquiring a company operating a bunch of 717's (an aircraft that is just marginally profitable because of fuel costs and an eventual mx/parts cost liability) flying out of a hub in MKE that is busy, but hardly the bustling competitive hub for ORD/MDW that people think, when there are other options.

Obviously we need to merge with someone to have a better route structure. I'd prefer that airline be someone further out west or someone with a good international feed structure to Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean, possibly even South America to give us a truly competitive route structure that none of our LCC competition has.

Obviously I don't have an MBA, so I'll simply have to hope they know what they're doing in Orlando, and their track record suggests that they do.

Citation, you might want to clarify that a combined company would NOT get to magically bargain for a new pilot contract. They would only be negotiating for integrating the employee list into the new AAI contract, as AAI is still the acquiring and surviving carrier, not for an entirely new CBA.

Back to the whipping post...

 

[CitationLover]

That's not "entirely" accurate.

I said I didn't see the merits of acquiring a company operating a bunch of 717's (an aircraft that is just marginally profitable because of fuel costs and an eventual mx/parts cost liability) flying out of a hub in MKE that is busy, but hardly the bustling competitive hub for ORD/MDW that people think, when there are other options.

Obviously we need to merge with someone to have a better route structure. I'd prefer that airline be someone further out west or someone with a good international feed structure to Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean, possibly even South America to give us a truly competitive route structure that none of our LCC competition has.

I think AMR is finally waking up to Spirit in the Caribbean. I don't think they will take to kindly to anymore intrusions.

Citation, you might want to clarify that a combined company would NOT get to magically bargain for a new pilot contract. They would only be negotiating for integrating the employee list into the new AAI contract, as AAI is still the acquiring and surviving carrier, not for an entirely new CBA.

Back to the whipping post...

Thank you for explaining it better. I thought there would be an opportunity to renegotiate a new CBA. Are you telling me that the Airways guys will be under the AWA contract once the integration is settled?

 

[CitationLover]

But that's not what his job is. His job is to protect the shareholders, not "his baby." The shareholders have loudly voiced their opinion on this, and it doesn't jive with what you and Tim want. It's time for Tim to step aside and let the shareholders get the merger that they want.

Actually his job is to manage the company. The board of directors (of which he reports to) are the ones responsible to the shareholders.

Has Tim done anything illegal with respect to the shareholders? They voted in the 3 bought and paid for AAI directors. Goldman Sachs said the board could get more money from AAI so they listened.

 

[Lear70]

I think AMR is finally waking up to Spirit in the Caribbean. I don't think they will take to kindly to anymore intrusions.

I agree. That's why I'd rather merge with Spirit or Frontier, to make a behemoth LCC with major Caribbean and South American presence with the remaining 737 deliveries converted to -800's before AMR or even DAL has a chance to react.

But, again, I ain't callin' the shots in Orlando (and wouldn't want to, and probably we're better off not).

Thank you for explaining it better. I thought there would be an opportunity to renegotiate a new CBA.

Only if the CBA that you're acquired under is up for negotiations.

What you DO have the opportunity to do is vote in a controlling MEC. If MEH ALPA did not agree to be represented by the existing NPA, there would be an election by ALL the MEH and AAI pilots, first for ALPA -vs- NPA, then for the BOD/MEC positions.

With NPA having serious DOH integration issues and given ALPA merger policy, (the UAir/AWA seniority integration notwithstanding - it didn't use merger policy, Nicolau ruled because UAir ALPA was stupid and dug their heels in - longer story), the odds of MEH's MEC surviving the transition is unlikely.

Are you telling me that the Airways guys will be under the AWA contract once the integration is settled?

UAir/AWA is different because BOTH groups, prior to the arbitration issue, negotiated a "transition agreement" with both management teams that they would collectively bargain a new CBA during the integration process. See here:

[SIZE=-1]www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsDownload.aspx?itemid=4259&ModuleId=2618[/SIZE]

Because management agreed, they're now bargaining together. Don't think you'll see that here.

If we're still in negotiations after the merger (assuming we don't have to spend 18-24 or even 36 months forcing a seniority integration through a single carrier petition), then all bets are off.

You have some scheduling rules that are better, then again, you have some that are worse (fewer days off on reserve, MDO's, fewer days off for lineholders, but a working FLICA system and other positives).

You have better F/O pay, especially after year 4, but worse CA pay (our new T.A. rates). We have a 10.5% B-fund and a 2% 401(k) by 2009. However, I believe your insurance rates are substantially lower than ours.

Our T.A. is, overall, an improvement over yours, but shorts the bottom half of the list through work rule concessions and jeopardizes their jobs through Scope concessions.

Right now, getting from the bottom half to the top half is only 4-5 years. With a merged list and slower upgrades without an increase in aircraft delivery slots, that time on the bottom is substantially increased.

Hence why I'm up in D.C. fighting for better QOL while on the bottom 1/2 and making sure the top half doesn't suffer the slippage of RJ's to Express Carriers and large SJ's replacing the 717 in the next 5-7 years at that ridiculous 100-seat pay scale.

Don't want perfect, just current book or better.

 

[PCL_128]

If MEH ALPA did not agree to be represented by the existing NPA

I think you can count on that.

 

[CitationLover]

Only if the CBA that you're acquired under is up for negotiations.

Ok, but for example we have a pension plan. Does this plan automatically terminate? Does this monthly benefit get converted into the AirTran B fund? Is it simply frozen? This is something I would imagine that is negotiated.

Does our Allegheny-Mohawk LPP language for our successor still bear out? Although it appears it will soon be law: http://www.fordharrison.com/shownews.aspx?Show=2888

What you DO have the opportunity to do is vote in a controlling MEC. If MEH ALPA did not agree to be represented by the existing NPA, there would be an election by ALL the MEH and AAI pilots, first for ALPA -vs- NPA, then for the BOD/MEC positions.

With NPA having serious DOH integration issues and given ALPA merger policy, (the UAir/AWA seniority integration notwithstanding - it didn't use merger policy, Nicolau ruled because UAir ALPA was stupid and dug their heels in - longer story), the odds of MEH's MEC surviving the transition is unlikely.

UAir/AWA is different because BOTH groups, prior to the arbitration issue, negotiated a "transition agreement" with both management teams that they would collectively bargain a new CBA during the integration process. See here:

[SIZE=-1]www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsDownload.aspx?itemid=4259&ModuleId=2618[/SIZE]

Because management agreed, they're now bargaining together. Don't think you'll see that here.

If we're still in negotiations after the merger (assuming we don't have to spend 18-24 or even 36 months forcing a seniority integration through a single carrier petition), then all bets are off.

You have some scheduling rules that are better, then again, you have some that are worse (fewer days off on reserve, MDO's, fewer days off for lineholders, but a working FLICA system and other positives).

You have better F/O pay, especially after year 4, but worse CA pay (our new T.A. rates). We have a 10.5% B-fund and a 2% 401(k) by 2009. However, I believe your insurance rates are substantially lower than ours.

Our T.A. is, overall, an improvement over yours, but shorts the bottom half of the list through work rule concessions and jeopardizes their jobs through Scope concessions.

Right now, getting from the bottom half to the top half is only 4-5 years. With a merged list and slower upgrades without an increase in aircraft delivery slots, that time on the bottom is substantially increased.

Hence why I'm up in D.C. fighting for better QOL while on the bottom 1/2 and making sure the top half doesn't suffer the slippage of RJ's to Express Carriers and large SJ's replacing the 717 in the next 5-7 years at that ridiculous 100-seat pay scale.

Don't want perfect, just current book or better.

Thank you for your efforts. Do you think the Reserve System at AAI will remain at current book?

 

[Lear70]

Is it a D.B. fund or a D.C. fund?

If it's a D.B. fund, it would, more than likely, have to be converted somehow; I really don't know what happens in that case.

Midwest is being acquired and operations merged. I imagine that means you'd fall under our defined contribution after the acquisition, have no idea how they'd deal with the D.B. fund...?


Reserves? Can't say.

The proposed T.A. that was put out last month is a complete rewrite of the reserve section, and there's a lot of negative loophole language in it.

 

[CitationLover]

Is it a D.B. fund or a D.C. fund?

If it's a D.B. fund, it would, more than likely, have to be converted somehow; I really don't know what happens in that case.

Midwest is being acquired and operations merged. I imagine that means you'd fall under our defined contribution after the acquisition, have no idea how they'd deal with the D.B. fund...?

yes it is an old school DB plan in addition to our DC plan. the DC plan balance is then "carved out" of the DB plan.

DC fund would be easy, simply transfer the account balance.

 

[deadstick]

Hey...how about that quarterly report!!! Did I read this right? Midwest drops 44%, and Airtran goes up 30%. I listened to the call last night on Yahoo. The Q&A part at the end is interesting.

 

[CitationLover]

Hey...how about that quarterly report!!! Did I read this right? Midwest drops 44%, and Airtran goes up 30%. I listened to the call last night on Yahoo. The Q&A part at the end is interesting.

i am sorry to hear your dad beat you as a young child.

 

[deadstick]

i am sorry to hear your dad beat you as a young child.

...!?!?!

 

[CitationLover]

...!?!?!

well you seem to like the fact that despite the hard working efforts of 400 flight crewmembers the results were not as good as we expected them to be. in addition, despite the hard working efforts of your 1500 pilots (who are actually told they ARE the reason for their success), they are still told how much they are worth with this TA.

 

[deadstick]

well you seem to like the fact that despite the hard working efforts of 400 flight crewmembers the results were not as good as we expected them to be. in addition, despite the hard working efforts of your 1500 pilots (who are actually told they ARE the reason for their success), they are still told how much they are worth with this TA.

1) I'm just standing on the sidelines looking in, ie not with AirTran.
2) I have been a fan of Midwest for years. I always loved the customer service and the people. Call me a nostalgia junkie, but I liked the fact that Midwest kept the bar high and tried to make air travel a pleasure, and not a pain. I had to fly AirTran quite often at an old job (b/c of schedule and route). I HATED going through ATL. I also hate going to WalMart at peak hours -- both places are insane!
3) Like many operations, the focus is on leadership. It’s the leadership at Midwest that seems to be faltering on the business side, and that of AirTran seems to have problems with rewarding their people for a job well done. At Midwest, there seems to be a lot that needs to be done, too. However, much of that requires cash. They have some reserve, but when you make less that $5M in Q2, it’s hard to do.
4) They didn’t do too good at fielding the questions after the report. It was similar to somebody testifying in front of Congress a repeating “I do not recall.” over and over again (“The board took no action”). The gal from Lightspeed might have been looking for a quick buck, but she did ask some valid questions. The style of the presentation and the Q&A session just didn’t seem to be a shining moment for MEH.

Part of me hopes the take over doesn’t go. I see AAI making Midwest the surviving carrier for the name and then drastically lowering the quality of customer service. On the other hand, I’d like to think I’m a practical man. In reality, it just doesn’t look good for the home team: the shares tendered, the drop in Q2 earnings, vague references to long term value/plan.

That’s all. Standing by for August 10….

 

[deadstick]

FWIW, other releases are down-playing AAI and focus on alternatives.

NEW YORK, July 31 (Reuters) - Midwest Air Group Inc. (MEH.A: Quote, Profile, Research), said on Tuesday that it plans to begin talks with AirTran Holdings Inc. (AAI.N: Quote, Profile, Research) regarding its proposal to acquire Midwest.
Midwest, which said its board of directors has formed a committee to explore strategic and financial alternatives, said it will also hold discussions with other strategic and financial parties that have recently expressed interest in Midwest.
Midwest said there is no assurance that the process will result in a transaction with AirTran or any other party.

 

[GOULET!]

" it will also hold discussions with other strategic and financial parties that have recently expressed interest in Midwest."

Joey Leonard better be ********************ting his pants right now. There is no way this is a done deal with AirTran. Bet SkyWest has thrown their hat in the ring for Midwest seeing how they are already flying 15 CRJ's for them and are looking for bigger aircraft. Also a chance a financial institution comes in to keep it a stand alone carrier. This one is far from over everybody.

 

[CitationLover]

" it will also hold discussions with other strategic and financial parties that have recently expressed interest in Midwest."

Joey Leonard better be ********************ting his pants right now. There is no way this is a done deal with AirTran. Bet SkyWest has thrown their hat in the ring for Midwest seeing how they are already flying 15 CRJ's for them and are looking for bigger aircraft. Also a chance a financial institution comes in to keep it a stand alone carrier. This one is far from over everybody.

So Tim H. won't sell his baby to another narrowbody operator because of his legacy, etc, but will sell it to the mormon regional operation?!?! uh yeah!

 

[Lear70]

Joey Leonard better be ********************ting his pants right now.

I seriously doubt it.

There is no way this is a done deal with AirTran. Bet SkyWest has thrown their hat in the ring for Midwest seeing how they are already flying 15 CRJ's for them and are looking for bigger aircraft.

Skywest... riiiiight. With financing from WHO with Midwest's failed business model?

Also a chance a financial institution comes in to keep it a stand alone carrier.

Again, what financial institution would attempt a bidding war to gain a bunch of orphan 717's and a failed business model? Throw good money after bad, BRILLIANT!

This one is far from over everybody.

The fat lady is warming up backstage. The only fly in the ointment is Northwest... If they stay out of it, there's no one else with a REALISTIC shot at it.